[aDoIJG] A – J 💮 A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar

Hi all, I’d like to randomly join in the middle! Don’t know if I can work through the backog as quickly and thoroughly as fallynleaf has, but I’ll do my best.

以外

There’s a whole page comparing 以外 and ほか as similar grammar points, but I couldn’t find an entry to ほか in either the Basic or Intermediate dictionary, and it’s definitely not difficult or rare enough for Advanced. I guess they’re thinking ほか counts as vocabulary instead of grammar? Idk.

Also, the authors are saying worrisome things again:
私には酒を飲む以外に何も楽しみがない。:sweat_smile:

以上(は)

I feel like I’ve definitely encountered this one in the wild before, but never quite understood/studied it. Yay!

I absolutely adore explanations like where it says “The structure cannot be used to express an objective causal relation.” because that’s the exact type of mistake I’d make when picking up grammar through immersion without studying.

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I agree with regards to encountering 以上(は) in the wild and scratching my head with it a bit, great chance to review and brush up!

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Week 7 begins!
Entries: 以外 to 上
Pages: 60-79

@Thubanshee You are welcome at any time! Thanks for joining us. :slight_smile:

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The dictionaries do seem to do this from time to time where a grammar point that they don’t think merits a full entry gets discussed in a comparison subsection of some other point. There is an index entry for ‘hoka’ that points you at ‘igai’ so you can find it. Other examples are -buri being mentioned in the entry for -rai, and hontou ni under ikanimo.

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That feels somehow fitting to me, as the main association I have with だが is how it’s really really good for dramatic turns in exposition scenes in movies and games etc.

blah blah blah what was expected to happen,
だが
blah blah blah the dramatic turn that happened instead!

so it feels like perhaps it fits Shoko’s movie-ish demeanor, especially around Misao.
(granted though that’s one of those associations where it’s hard to tell if it’s just me over extrapolating from a couple examples or a common thing)

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I have had had this book on my shelf for many years now, maybe opened it just a few times, but after seeing all the fun everyone is having, I think I’ll join in the middle as well! I hadn’t even thought of just reading through the book.

I didn’t realize the example sentences were quite as interesting to read as they are, and the explanations are so helpful. I like how many examples per grammar point there are as well, to get the cementing started at least.

Looking forward to studying with you all :man_bowing:!

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どころか

Here’s one I’ve struggled with! I don’t recall learning this one in a textbook, and it has confounded me in native media on at least one occasion!

Here's a very recent example from Toyko Joshi Pro Wrestling's 2024.01.04 show, after Hyper Misao faced her tag partner Shoko Nakajima in their traditional イッテンヨン singles match. Misao debuted her brand new crowdfunded bike for this match, and, well, let's just say that pro wrestling is not always kind to bicycles... This sentence was extremely hard to parse because she sort of adds interjections in the middle, so I had to get a lot of help with it:

Hard mode: here’s the video.

ミサヲ「あーせっかく2代目ハイパミドラマティックドリーム号のお披露目だったというのに、負けました。負けたどころか、無傷で終われば、負けるのも嫌だけど、最悪でも無傷で終わりたかったんですけど、見てください(と言ってヘルメットと、取れた門松を見せる)。私のお正月使用で、季節ごとに門松とか、クリスマスならサンタさんとか、ツリーとかつけようと思ったのに、ボロリ」

Misao: “Ah, I lost even though this was the unveiling of the 2nd generation Hypami Dramatic Dream Mobile. Not only did I lose, but… if I could have just come through unscathed—losing does suck though—I wanted to at least come through unscathed, but look—” (she shows the helmet with the kadomatsu that came off of it) “I used this for New Year’s, and I thought for each season, I’d attach the kadomatsu, or like Santa or a tree if it’s Christmas, that kind of thing, but it got damaged.”

どうも

どうも is an adverb that indicates the speaker/writer cannot make a definitive statement about something because they can’t identify/pinpoint the reason.

Note 2 says that the final predicate is overtly negative or covertly negative. When the final predicate is not negative, it normally ends with an auxilary adjective らしい or ようだ.

The meaning in note 3 is the one I still associate the most with this word: どうも is used with ありがとう(ございます) to mean “thank you very much”, or with すみません to mean “I’m very sorry.” So どうも alone can mean a very casual “thank you” or “sorry”.

There (surprisingly?) aren't actually a whole lot of どうもs in TJPW. Here's one from one of the sadder things I had to translate, which was the 2023.10.25 press conference announcing the revised date for Yuka Sakazaki's graduation (on December 6).

Here’s the video, and here’s the full transcript.

坂崎「どうもお待たせしました、坂崎ユカです。本当だったら12月1日卒業といって今絶賛卒業ロード中だったと思うんですけど、でも6月にストップがかかって、私もお客さんもストップがかかった状態でもやもやさせてしまいましたが決心がついたので、12月6日北沢タウンホールで卒業することを発表させていただきます。それにあたって、やりたかったことが今全部崩壊している状態だったので、時間のある中でどうしようとすごい考えたんですけど、できるだけ今残された時間で精いっぱい当たれる選手と当たって、卒業ロードにはなりますが、これを駆け抜けたいと思います」

Sakazaki: “Thank you for waiting. I’m Yuka Sakazaki. I was supposed to graduate on December 1, and you’d think that I’d be in the middle of my highly acclaimed graduation road right about now. But it was stopped in June, and that made both the audience and I really sad, but I’ve made up my mind, so I am announcing that I will graduate on December 6 at Kitazawa Town Hall. Things being as they are, everything that I wanted to do has now come crumbling down, so I really thought about what I should do with the time that I have, and in the remaining time, I am going to fight all of the wrestlers that I can as much as possible, and it’ll be a graduation road of a sort, but I want to see it through.”

どんなに~(こと)か

Note 1 says that in the exclamatory structure of どんなに~ことか, an adjective (い/な) or a psychological/physiological verb is used before ことか (so verbs talking about emotional or bodily states).

When the structure is used as an embedded question, こと is omitted.

いかに~(こと)か and どれほど~(こと)か can be used in exactly the same way as どんなに~(こと)か, the only difference being that the former is a more formal writing style. I don’t think I’ve seen the others, but I could’ve easily seen them before and forgotten!

I couldn’t find this structure in any of my TJPW translation documents, though I confess, I didn’t try looking for the formal writing versions.

どうせ

According to the sole note for this entry, the adverb どうせ often indicates the speaker feels helpless and/or angry that nothing can be done to change a given situation, but it can also be used to suggest finality of one’s decision.

Found a couple examples from the most recent TJPW translation I finished! This was from their Korakuen Hall show on 2024.02.10, where Yuki Arai defended the International Princess Championship against Juria Nagano and then Yuki Kamifuku came out to challenge her:

No video link because this happened during a show. Additional context: Ryogoku KFC Hall and Ryogoku Kokugikan are both pro wrestling venue names, with Ryogoku Kokugikan being the location of TJPW’s next big show.

上福「お疲れ様~。試合直後とは思えないくらいのこの美しいビジュアル、さすがだなって思うし。本当にいつも東京女子プロレスとアイドル業と、どっちもすごい頑張って。名古屋と東京どっちも行き来して忙しそうにしてるのに『忙しいでしょ? 疲れてるでしょ?』って聞くと「いや~、そんなことないです」って言えるかんじ。もう全然鼻についてないよ。愛されてるところとかも全然ひがんでないんだけど、まぁ私も東京女子プロレスを盛り上げたい気持ちはあるのね。最近は色んなアジアの国に行って、よく分からない食べ物食べたりして頑張ってるんだけど、ここで東京女子プロレスを盛り上げたい。そしてビジュアルを大切にしている同士、お互いの顔面を崩し合って、そしてこのベルトを懸けて闘いあったらもっと盛り上がるんじゃないかなって思うんですけど~」

Kamifuku: “Great job! An unimaginably beautiful visual right after the match, as expected. You’re always working so hard both in TJPW and in the idol industry. It’s like how even though you seem so busy going back and forth between Nagoya and Tokyo, when people ask, ‘You must be busy, huh? Aren’t you tired?’ you’re like, ‘No, not really!’ I’m not at all sick and tired of it. I’m not at all jealous of how much they love you!! But, well, I also want to liven up TJPW. Lately I’ve been going to different countries in Asia and eating foods that I don’t really understand and working hard, but I’d like to make TJPW more exciting right here. And I thought, wouldn’t it get more exciting if we two people who care about looks break each other’s faces, and fight with that belt on the line?”

荒井「上福さん…まさか上福さん出てくるとは思ってなくて、けっこう戸惑ってるんですけど。でも私も闘いたいなと思います」

Arai: “Kamifuku-san… I didn’t expect you to be the one to come forward, and I’m a bit bewildered. But I want to fight you, too.”

上福「ありがとう。じゃあ名古屋の女って派手なの好きだし、どうせ私も派手好きなんで。どうせやるなら両国…? KFCじゃない方ね」

Kamifuku: “Thank you. Well, Nagoya women like showing off, and I like to be showy, too. So if we’re doing it, how about Ryogoku…? Not the KFC one.”

荒井「国技館の方ですか」

Arai: “The Kokugikan one?”

上福「国技館の方で、互いのビジュアルとベルトを懸けましょう」

Kamifuku: “At the Kokugikan one, let’s fight with both our looks and the belt on the line.”

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I’ve always loved the way いかにも sounds, for some reason.

The title of this video is using it as an adjective, not an adverb, but it amused me anyway:

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いかにも
pg 69 Exs.(k):

彼はいかにも全部分かっているかのように話しているが、その実何も分かっていない。

If I were to make this sentence myself, I would have said it as “[…]分かっているように[…]”, and left out the かの. What function is it serving here? I understand “Nのよう” for nouns, but not in this form, if that’s what it even is(?)

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There’s an entry for かのように in the Advanced volume. The short description of it is “a conjunctive phrase that forms an adverbial clause which describes the way s.o./s.t. appears to the writer, contrary to reality”. So in this sentence it’s providing the same nuance that “as if” is doing in the English version.

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Thank you so much for the clear explanation :man_bowing: It makes a lot more sense to me now. Cheers!

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It looks like いかにも is rare in the manga I read.

But it does come up from time to time.

image

It shows up just enough that I’ll add it to my SRS deck and see how soon (or long) it is until I encounter it in reading again.

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How do you search your manga so quickly? Is there a special tool for it or are you just especially lucky/a voracious reader?

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I use Mokuro to extract text from digital manga pages, and a Python script I wrote to perform the search.

It allows me to enter text and get back a list of manga that use that text.

It takes a bit to set it all up, but once the setup is complete, it’s quick and easy to use.

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いかにも

I absolutely love the sound of this, too. And it’s such a useful word.

What’s that effect called again, where you learn something new and suddenly you see it everywhere? I learned 古今東西 just yesterday while reading a manga and now it appears in this example sentence:

彼の書斎の本棚には古今東西の本が詰まっていて、いかにも学者の部屋らしい。

The bookshelves of his room are packed with books of all ages and countries, and it surely looks like a scholar’s room.

I aspire to be like that guy! (Should I get a second and third bookshelf to display all the books currently packed up in boxes in my grandma’s garage?)

〜一方で(は)〜他方で(は)

I can barely believe it myself but I found a mistake in one of the examples.

あの大統領は、一方では減税を約束しておきながら、他方では側近の税金の無駄使い*をあまり重要視していない。

The president has promised tax-curs. But on the other hand he doesn’t think much about waste of tax-payers’ money by his entourage.

I saw this and was like “huh, I just saw 無駄遣い written with a different kanji the other day”, so I looked it up, and using 使い is indeed a very common mistake!

Sorry if this is too off-topic but I’m so proud:star_struck:

〜上

This is so so useful. I hope I encounter it many times so it will actually stick. Maybe make an anki card just for it because it’s so 便利.

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Wow impressive!

Could it be that it is such a common mistake, that’s it’s partly accepted now?
It is listed as “irregular” in my dictionary app

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Yeah, I googled it and several Japanese sources agreed it was wrong, but the international sources list it as a variant/irregular form. So I’m assuming it’s technically wrong but common enough that it’s good to know both. Like your/you’re, maybe?

(I remember the first time I saw “would of” and the ten minutes or so of searching it took to find out it’s an irregular spelling of “would have”, I would have (hah) loved having a dictionary list it as a variant.)

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I see what you mean, somehow it hurts to think that “would of” and “your” can be seen as correct or just “irregular” :disappointed_relieved:

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Gotta love the “Imperative” entry saying “Yeah, this is formed with the conditional stem”.

No, it’s formed with the imperative form, that’s what makes it the imperative form.

Ah, the terminology. When you call your ~え stem the “conditional stem” every time it shows up, you’re gonna get people wondering “what does this grammar form have to do with the conditional?”

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I dunno, I feel like by the time somebody’s got to intermediate level they’ve noticed that there are several different systems of terminology for verb conjugations, so it doesn’t much matter what you call them. And Vcond + ば is something you learn early enough to make Vcond not a terrible name for that stem.

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