銭天堂 | Week 2 Discussion

Page 20, paragraph 4

ばしゃんと水の中に入るなり、はげしいかわきがおさまるのをかんじた。

I think I understand the sentence (As soon as she entered the water, her feeling of violent thirst subsided), but I have no clue what the ばしゃんと is supposed to be.

From my understanding, it is the onomatopoeia for a splash when entering the water.

So the sentence means “After entering the water with a splash, …”

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Thanks! Looks like I need to start using that sound effect site.

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I love how Japanese has a different onomatopoeia for middle and big splashes ^.^

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Definitely felt myself looking up words more frequently this week than last, but overall still not so much that it’s unenjoyable or impossible to understand! I actually enjoyed it so much that I finished the first chapter before I finally forced myself to stop reading… guess I’ll just be ahead for a little while :sweat_smile:

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Others have provided more specific answers already, but regarding mimetic adverbs, like ぞくりと and ばしゃんと, you might like to know that there are a few general and somewhat productive (=people use them more or less freely to coin new words) heuristics at play, which kind of explains why you don’t find them in dictionaries.

Mimetic words usually consist of some kind of stem, which is usually two mora-long, ぞく, ばしゃ, etc. + some fluff. Fluff comes in a few regular varieties and some outliers which are not really productive (= should be in dictionary).

  1. You may double the sound if it’s two-mora long, ぞく → ぞくぞく, and then optionally add と or っと
  2. You may pad with り/ん/っ and then add と (not optional)
  3. Advanced tip: you may swap vowels because you think it sounds better that way. U/o sometimes swap, depending on speaker preferences, if the second mora has a subdued vowel (e.g., ku pronounced as k’) it could probably also swap between i/u, I believe, etc.

What this means for you as a reader is that, if you find some mimetic word that is not in your dictionary, one thing you can do (besides searching the web, asking natives, etc.), is apply the above rules in reverse to try to guess some other form that would be in the dictionary. For example, here, zokurito = zoku (stem) + rito (fluff), so you try zokuzoku for example and jmdict / jisho has it. Same with bashanto = basha + nto, and you guess bashatto

Addendum about fluff

The fluff actually isn’t meaningless. In case you care, quoting from Hamano (hiragana mine):

/N/ (ん) indicates that the action involves elastic objects or is accompanied by a reverberation.
/Q/ (っ) on the other hand indicates that the movement is carried out forcefully or vigorously in a single direction.
/-ri/ (り) […] indicates ‘quiet ending of the movement.’

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I am now reading through the Wk2 part again, looking for the parts that I want to understand. And here I came across again (since the chapter title) the phrase 型ぬき人魚グミ
So I am thinking what does the 型抜き mean here? The only lead I found is that the thing named 型抜き is used as a shape cutter when forming cookies.

Like is this a general meaning of a snack cut into a form of a mermaid - or a snack that cuts you into a form of a mermaid? :thinking:

Weird thoughts are coming into my head :joy::sweat_smile:

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I like your weird thoughts :joy:

I would say that 型ぬき refers to the process of making an object using a form or mold, so it is identical in shape to that form or mold (like the cookies made with a cookie cutter).

Here are some other examples of 型ぬき (Taken from a google image search using that word)

Made in a way similar to the cookies
image

Made in a way similar to our mermaid
image

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Some late questions for this week’s reading!


Page 14

…色とりどりの大きなガラス玉のかんざしを何本もさしているところとか、…

Two things:

  1. there are a lot of ところs going on in the description of Beniko-san, and I don’t quite understand what purpose they serve grammatically.

  2. Is 本 a counter for glass beads or something? And what verb follows? さす could be all sorts of things…


Page 18

今のは夢だったのかと思いかけたが、…

Just don’t know what 思いかける means?

小さなビニールに入った粉がひとつつみと、…

ひとつつみ - is this ひとつ plus つみ, with the latter being a counter or something?


Page 20

するり、しゅっと、先生達のまわりをからかうように泳いでは逃げてしまう。

What does まわり mean? As if she’s mocking the teachers’… rotations?! Could be ‘efficacy’, I guess.

クラスのみんなも、目を点にしていた。

I feel like this should be an official idiom, but this is (not literally translated) “their eyes were like points”, right?


Page 21

As far as I can see nobody answered this question? I was also wondering the same thing…


Phew, sorry for so many…

I found this - looks like it’s an expression. Could be the second definition, like she was worried it was all a dream?

I believe it’s actually ひと (prefix for one) + つつみ (包み, counter for wrapped objects, such as wrapped sweets - in this case, it’s wrapped in ビニール).

For some reason, I remember reading this as she was swimming circles around them (as if mocking them). With the surroundings definition of まわり (like she was swimming around in the vicinity of the teachers, almost as though she was mocking them). But I’m not sure if that’s actually correct because grammar is hard. xD Jisho says can indicate an area traversed. So, I would split it like 先生達のまわり (the vicinity of the teachers) is the object/the area where she was swimming around mockingly (からかうように泳いで) What am I even saying, I hope this actually makes sense ><

I tried to google that expression and I found info on 目が点になる as an expression, which seems like it might be similar. I think it is an idiom, meaning that they were surprised (like how in a manga, people are drawn with their eyes as “points” when they’re surprised/to show a “surprised” expression, according to that link above xD)

I can’t quite figure out what とき is doing grammatically there with だ or how it would translate, but I do agree that かいた is probably 掻く, to scratch. “At that time, she scratched strongly without realizing it”? (Is kind of how I read it, but I can’t find anything on Google to back me up grammatically)

I don’t think I know the answers to the other questions, sorry :bowing_woman:
Also someone who knows grammar please add to this and/or correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t know grammar

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My understanding is that 本 is being used as a counter for long, cylindrical things, in this case it refers to the ガラス玉のかんざし (hair ornament with big, colorful beads), so the thing being counted are not the the beads, but the ornaments. If you look at Beniko’s picture in the cover, she has quite a few of these and they indeed look long/cylindrical:

image

さす, I believe, refers to 刺す (to pierce; to stab) since they are stabbed into her hair.

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It’s probably using the “aspect, point” meaning of ところ here. The sentence is a bit confusing in that the ところ’s seem to be coming from nowhere, but they are getting connected later in the sentence.
…〜ところとか、〜ところとか、はでな感じがする。
Aspects like 〜 and 〜 gave her a flashy impression.
Sort of listing things that contribute to the impression with the ところとか.

I think the とき refers back to the sentence before that: おまけに、足のあたりがむずがゆくなってきた。
“Additionally, it became itchy around her feet.”
And the sentence after specifies the time / moment when it became itchy:
おもわず強くかいたときだ
after she scratched it unconsciously.

That’s how I read it as well. She’s not mocking 先生達のまわり, but swimming mockingly, around the teachers.

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I think it’s just おもう+(i)かける “I was about/starting to think that”?

Yeah I think it’s just “it was when” but it’s unclear if it refers to what precedes or follows; depends on context.

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I read them as a sort of nominaliser, with the idea of “such thing as doing X and doing Y made this sort of impression”. I was unable to find the proof though. Perhaps this is a variant of some other grammar.

I have located a hint in the JPN-JPN dictionary saying that おもいかく=思ひ掛く=予想する, i.e. to assume. Which kind of fits in.

yep, that is an idiom, more often used as 目が点になる, meaning to be stunned with sth. I am not sure that I got well the explanation in the dictionary but it seems the root for this is that in manga the characters surprise is drawn with their pupils turned into dots. As you might remember, in Japanese the 目 is not only for the eyes, but also may mean pupils specifically.

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ow-wow, such a huge activity in this chain all of a sudden! :smile:

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That’s true, it could also refer to the sentence(s) after.
The only other indication I have is that the paragraph ends after ときだ, but maybe that’s just for emphasis? For more shock by what follows? But even then, I feel like they would the sentence with the ときだ in a new paragraph.

But… Maybe it makes more sense if you relate it to the sentence after.
“かり。へんな音がして、なにかが床に落ちた”
“It was when she scratched strongly.
noise there was a strange noise, and something fell to the floor”

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Ah, that could definitely be - tbh, かける is one of those words I just ignore most of the time because I never know what it means xD (That’s a terrible habit but I really just hate that word, it’s so vague) Aaaand I just realized the expression I linked had an を in there, so I think you’re probably right.

Ahhh, yes, I think that makes a lot of sense! I think it probably is for emphasis/suspense, since this is kind of a dramatic moment. Like if this scene was written in an English children’s book (with a liberal translation), it would almost be like:

“Around lunchtime, the dryness became unbearable. To make matters worse, her feet started to itch. When she unconsciously reached down to scratch them…
Clink! (or whatever sound)
There was a strange noise, and something fell to the floor.” (:scream:)

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How did I not make this connection? I was determinedly reading it as she was mocking something, rather than just ‘swimming mockingly’, and I couldn’t think what まわり could possibly be that one could mock it.

Oops, perfect, thank you!

Even having that confirmed makes it easier just to follow what’s going on at least.

Tricksy :thinking: I think that probably makes more sense in context? The dramatic buildup followed by the dramatic payoff. Ah, yep, I agree with @windupbird!

Aah, I wondered about that but for some reason assumed ガラス玉のかんざし applied only to the bits on the ends, not the whole thing. In hindsight, I really don’t know why!

Ooh, makes perfect sense with that meaning!

:+1: makes sense.

I know, seem to have kicked off a few debates! :see_no_evil:

I hate it in isolation but I’ve learned quite a few specific verbs using it, so I kind of wanted to add one more to the list :grin: (for interest: 見かける, 引っ掛ける, 話しかける and 投げかける!)


Thank you so much for all of your detailed and thoughtful answers guys! I really appreciate it :blush:

Also, can we take a moment to appreciate how the breaks managed to fall at fabulous cliffhangers both times for this chapter :grin:


Splish, splash, splosh? :sweat_drops:

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Page 14
幸運をもとめる幸運な人

I have a question about this, or rather, I want to make sure I actually understand these kind of things correctly.

My first thought was that this meant luck seeking lucky/fortunate person (aka that luck seeking/wishing for good fortune/asking for luck modified person), but 幸運をもとめる is modifying 幸運 and not 人, right? So it would be more accurate to say something like: person with luck seeking good fortune or person with wishing for luck luck/good fortune?

In other words, the good fortune/luck the person had was in looking/searching/wishing for luck/good fortune. Have I got that right?

I hope you’re okay with me answering again!

This is my interpretation as well.

I don’t think this is right. 幸運をもとめる is modifying (幸運な人), or rather, both things are modifying 人: 幸運をもとめる人 who is also a 幸運な人.

I’m no pro at actually explaining grammar, but is it even possible for a noun phrase to modify an adjective? If I imagine the same sentence with a different adjective, like 幸運をもとめる背が高い人, for example, there’s only one possible interpretation: The tall person who’s seeking good fortune.

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