招待する たい vs だい in the audio

[Beyond_Sleepy]

In the audio for 招待する the male voice seems to be saying だい instead of たい. I’m guessing this is an acceptable pronunciation but not an acceptable way of writing the word? Since the pronunciation makes an appearance in the audio I think you should add a note about it in the reading explanation though.

WaniKani, a kanji learning application by Tofugu

[brenty]

しょうたい is definitely correct, and…that’s unfortunately also what the male voice is saying.

You’re not wrong that it’s difficult to discern, but there are a lot of sounds like this in Japanese that, when spoken, can often sound ambiguous due to not enunciating the way we might expect in (proper) English. Another common example that comes to mind is pretty much all of the がぎぐげご sounds, especially in certain parts of the country. I have a friend who always says ごめん etc. with a super glotteral(?) G sound which throws my ear off every time even though it’s easy enough to figure out due to context.

Honestly, it’s really best to just get used to them, as this is how you’ll often (if not always) hear these things from native Japanese speakers, so I don’t think it would be a good idea to change it in WaniKani. Reflecting actual real world use is the best teacher. Hang in there!

[Beyond_Sleepy]

@brenty

You’re not wrong that it’s difficult to discern

Are you saying there is a discernible difference between Kenichi saying たい in the above example and だい in this example?

I’m not saying that he isn’t saying しょうたいする, I’m saying that Wanikani should add a note explaining that sometimes in speech the phonemes can be indistinguishable (such as here). E.g.

@brenty

this is how you’ll often (if not always) hear these things from native Japanese speakers

Apart from that I’m not asking for Wanikani to change how they’re teaching the word, and I can’t find where in my feedback you found that notion^^;

[brenty]

@Beyond_Sleepy

Are you saying there is a discernible difference between Kenichi saying たい in the above example and だい in this example ?

Unfortunately yes. There’s probably a technical linguistic term for it, but to my ear it’s the percussive difference between, say, a snare and a bass drum – た has an “edge” to it, whereas だ does not.

For some reason I have an easier time hearing this difference than stuff like いや versus いあ – maybe because of music, who knows.

@Beyond_Sleepy

I’m not saying that he isn’t saying しょうたいする, I’m saying that Wanikani should add a note explaining that sometimes in speech the phonemes can be indistinguishable (such as here). E.g.

I think the problem with doing that is that they are not indistinguishable, just that they can be difficult to distinguish in normal speech. Having a note like that would, in my opinion, discourage people from training their ears on natural Japanese and instead treating it as しょうがない – when, in fact, it can be learned, and really must be in order to be able to understand others in conversation.

@Beyond_Sleepy

Apart from that I’m not asking for Wanikani to change how they’re teaching the word, and I can’t find where in my feedback you found that notion^^;

Sorry for being a bit vague. I mean that in general I think it’s reflective of the language in common use as-is. Others, Tofugu folks included, may feel differently. Just my opinion from experience. I definitely feel where you’re coming from: almost every day I am confused by some pronunciation and/or phrasing that throws me off, but I’m learning a lot from it.

P.S: Love the name, and can definitely relate.

[Beyond_Sleepy]

@brenty

Unfortunately yes.

@brenty

I think the problem with doing that is that they are not indistinguishable, just that they can be difficult to distinguish in normal speech. Having a note like that would, in my opinion, discourage people from training their ears on natural Japanese and instead treating it as しょうがない – when, in fact, it can be learned, and really must be in order to be able to understand others in conversation

^ then this is what I’m suggesting would be a very helpful note in the reading explanation for the few words in the WK corpus where the audio reflects this kind of issue. They’re basically good moments to raise awareness, especially if there’s a chance of someone (e.g. me😅) not being able to hear a difference that is actually detectable and should be learned:)

[brenty]

I feel like you noticing this in the first place is a sign that you’re already on your way to learning to hear it, and a note would be redundant, but we’ll see what others think.

[d-hermit]

@Beyond_Sleepy

In the audio for 招待する the male voice seems to be saying だい instead of たい.

To be honest I hear that he’s saying たい. I don’t think it’s true that in Japanese た and だ can be close to indistinguishable under normal circumstances. Such is why I’m not convinced there should be a special notice for this.

Of course there are individual differences in speakers and especially under different speaking conditions. Let’s say if Kenichi just ran a sprint his だい may closer to たい or even something less clear.

[Beyond_Sleepy]

I guess this could be a case where what phonemes you were exposed to in childhood will impact how able you are to process certain phonemes in other languages. Now I’m wondering if my fellow Norwegians are more likely to have trouble with this one or not Might just be a me thing

@TrinityBringer ? Thoughts?

[brenty]

That’s a really good thought! Now that you mention it, I grew up in the US midwest, famous for poor enunciation in general…and lazy T sounds that often sound a lot like Ds more specifically…

[brenty]

Thinking about it a bit more, something I’ve noticed is that native Japanese speakers seem to use a lot less mouth mobility than what I’m used to as a native English speaker: opening, moving, etc. I believe that – the physical motion (or relative lack thereof) – is also the reason the gap narrows between some sounds.

I still have a lot of work to do, but emulating that has helped my pronunciation a lot, compared to others who make the sounds the same way they would if they were English words: たい sounds very different to tai to me, both when speaking and listening, (and feels different too: it’s more natural for me to open my mouth more widely when pronouncing English words) if that makes sense. That probably also contributes to the difficulty my Japanese friends have when it comes to English (among others)…

[brenty]

@d-hermit

To be honest I hear that he’s saying たい. I don’t think it’s true that in Japanese た and だ can be close to indistinguishable under normal circumstances. […] Of course there are individual differences in speakers and especially under different speaking conditions.

It probably varies between regions as well, but here in Osaka I typically hear speech closer to Kenichi. And while not necessarily regional, I hear a lot of that on TV as well – though admittedly many variety shows feature a lot of comedians, which often hail from Kansai as well.

[Beyond_Sleepy]

@brenty

Japanese speakers seem to use a lot less mouth mobility than what I’m used to as a native English speaker: opening, moving, etc. I believe that – the physical motion (or relative lack thereof) – is also the reason the gap narrows between some sounds.

Trying to emulate that now I believe I can hear (and feel) the difference between だい and the たい we’re discussing. Thanks:)

[TrinityBringer]

@Beyond_Sleepy

Now I’m wondering if my fellow Norwegians are more likely to have trouble with this one or not Might just be a me thing

I also hear だい…

[brenty]

It definitely takes some getting used to. I suspect that this is something anyone learning a new language goes through to some extent.

Honestly, the lack of context for the recording makes it harder. Probably if you heard Kenichi speak full sentences, especially with other T and D sounds, you’d get it.

For the purposes of learning a single item in WaniKani this is one thing that is more challenging than it would be otherwise (transitivity is perhaps another example).

[Belthazar]

@brenty

Honestly, the lack of context for the recording makes it harder.

Also the fact that you’re listenting to a recording of a voice that’s passed through a microphone, encoding software, and then your speakers and/or headphones before arriving at your ears.

[d-hermit]

@Beyond_Sleepy

Now I’m wondering if my fellow Norwegians are more likely to have trouble with this one or not

Interesting hypothesis. I’ll ask a Norwegian friend who speaks Japanese as well.

I myself struggle with Norwegian pronunciation

[polv]

t can be both aspirated and unaspirated versions, both correspond to た. Voiced version of either is だ.

I think I hear しょうたいする. Male one is unaspirated.

Say, compare with 肌色(はだいろ). I can easily distinguish from this one, but I recall that I might not be able to distinguish various versions of d, in English or something… (But English has spelling shadowing the actual pronunciations, anyway.)

[brenty]

English is the worst.