ルーパーズ ♾ Chapter 5 (Visual Novel Book Club)

[Sylph]

Just finished this! Longest chapter so far and it took me 1h 30 min so that’s less than I expected from the character count to be honest. Definitely have rikaikun to thank for that.

Nice to see the looping premise officially come to light. I also was expecting the senior loopers to be all misterious and antagonistic considering their previous encounter so it was nice to see they actually want to collaborate and are providing info to the newcomers. Still really curious about how this ties in with the ghostly stuff. Hopefully next chapter we get more info and not just a transitional chapter of the characters confirming that they are indeed looping.

[Redglare]

Found two cultural references in this chapter:

(Not counting Inoopy )

1. ザサエさん, which refers to the manga サザエさん
   

   

2. I guess this refers to a Dragon Ball OP? (Never heard it). Since 魔訶 doesn’t seem to be an actual word, with just the one Dragon Ball entry in Jisho.

   

[rikaiwisdom]

@Redglare

I guess this refers to a Dragon Ball OP? (Never heard it). Since 魔訶 doesn’t seem to be an actual word, with just the one Dragon Ball entry in Jisho.

It is an actual word apparently! But a different kanji . Comes from Buddhism, seems to be just another emphasis word.

摩訶（まか）とは？ 意味・読み方・使い方をわかりやすく解説 - goo国語辞書

摩訶不思議（まかふしぎ）とは？ 意味・読み方・使い方をわかりやすく解説 - goo国語辞書

[ccookf]

@TobiasW

I have to admit that in general, all of this is difficulty-wise (vocab and kanjis, mainly) a fair way beyond my comfort level, and I’m only holding on because of Yomichan.

This is something I didn’t learn until I had watched Vanilla’s video on studying and stuff, but a large part of native media ends up being words used exactly once in the body of text. Most of the stuff I’ve looked up has been in the 50%ish range for unique words, including this VN.

So really, I think it’s a good problem to have. In a sense, most of us learners are going to be on the lookup struggle. If it’s mostly lookups holding us back there’s no reason not to jump in, right? Before I started learning Japanese I had done something along the lines of MTL and that was a complete nightmare by comparison.

[TobiasW]

Yeah, I got more comfortable having lots of lookups during the 夜カフェ book club. In the case of Loopers though, I feel like it’s mainly two things that are making it hard for me:

• It’s a lot more lookups than I needed for 夜カフェ.
• My radical/kanji knowledge isn’t good enough, so I keep looking up the same words all the time too - sometimes in dialog sections (because my listening comprehension is not the best yet), but mostly in narration sections. Unlike in text with furigana where I just have to learn reading + meaning and then get reminded by the furigana the next time I see it, here I’d have to learn kanji combination + reading + meaning, and that’s just too much for so many words while reading.

Both of these things combined just make it much more of a strain and rather time-intensive. And because of that second thing, I’m not even properly learning the repeating words.

Now, I’m not saying that I’m not learning anything at all. I especially like that this can even help with my listening comprehension on top of my reading abilities, and I enjoy the story and characters! But it’s a strain, and because it’s too far beyond my vocab/kanji level, it’s taking lots of time AND I feel like I’m not learning as much as I could.

[Daisoujou]

I’m not sure if there’s a hump you have to get over in learning or something, because I remember early days (though that was more about manga) where I’d look up the same words over and over and over and feel like my reading wasn’t teaching me much because it was just too much struggle. But when I started VNs I found that after sticking through one for a bit, those kanji words that reoccurred were getting more or less automatically drilled in after a point. To the degree that I went through the 40s especially in WK going “yeah I know that one already” to like a quarter or a half of a level frequently enough. I dunno if that’ll definitely happen for you, but I do think there’s at least a point where that sort of thing becomes likely when you stick with certain works.

Not to disagree about the process being time consuming and a big strain though, haha. It sure is that pretty often. There’s really good logic to keeping things just a step above your current level especially in vocab acquisition, but for what it’s worth I’ve found big gains when I did push myself hard at times so it’s possible you might get more than expected by the end in your general ability to process the way Japanese is written, which is never really conscious while it’s happening. I hope so anyway

[TobiasW]

I think it might’ve been easier for you to actually learn those new kanji because you already knew a lot of them (plus radicals) due to WK, which seems like a pretty strong foundation. I mostly learnt new kanji only as part of vocab words via Anki, and no radicals, which mostly works, but only because of the wonders of SRS (and even that failed on some kanji). I feel like a good next step for me would be to actually start SRSing kanjis.

On the other hand, maybe I am learning new words and just need more lookup “repetitions” before it sticks. Before 夜カフェ, I didn’t think I’d learn too much in terms of vocab just from reading either, and I think that turned out better than I expected. It’s definitely hard to say sometimes.

Either way, we’ll find out, because I don’t see myself stopping reading Loopers anytime soon

[Daisoujou]

You could have a point there! I started Wanikani almost from day one so I have no basis to even conceive of learning (words made of) kanji without somewhat thinking by radicals. I know some people are about only doing it the way you did, but if nothing else, personally I don’t think I could’ve gotten over the intimidation factor of kanji without some method breaking them down and demystifying them for me. I don’t feel in a position to say anything about what you should do because it’s too far from my experience, but I do know the way I’ve done it is a useful method to carry forward to learning new ones, so you’re right that I had a good foundation, whether it truly gives me a leg up on you or not.

[TobiasW]

I finally had time to look through the sentences that I had trouble with in this chapter. A few I could figure out on my own after a little bit of research, but those I’m still scratching my head over:

Grammar/vocab questions

• When Tyler first realizes that he is not experiencing a deja-vu, and that the current date is the same as “yesterday”:
  そして、もう一度そんな馬鹿なと頭を振る。
  What exactly does そんな馬鹿なと add to the sentence? Is he saying/thinking it, while shaking his head again vehemently?

• Tyler, thinking a bit about how things are different in the last loop, however…
  ……敢えて共通点を見出すとするならば、昨日も今日も、被害者は同じ、ということくらいか……。

  • What does 敢えて mean there? I can’t find a meaning that seems to fit.
  • What’s the とする here? I know “volitional + とする”, which would be “to try” among other things. That would fit, but 見出す is dictionary form.

• Hilda, after being told by Tyler that unless she also headbutted the other two people in the hospital, it wasn’t her that caused Leona’s state:
  「す、する訳ねぇだろ……っ」とはいいつつも、ヒルダが一番気にしていた心の棘が抜け、幾ばくかの安堵を見せる。
  I guess the と is the quotation particle, and maybe it’s followed but the topic particle は, but what’s the remainder of とはいいつつも?

• While Hilda is calling Leona’s parents from the hospital:
  ヒルダはスマホを持ってペコペコしながらも、あっちへ行けとタイラを蹴飛ばす、器用な真似を見せる。
  I assume that’s: “While Hilda is holding her smartphone and bowing and scraping, she’s kicking Tyler (who’s doing a skillful impression of her) so that he goes away.”, because that makes logical sense. But what makes the subject change? Why is the first part Hilda (holding her phone), the second part Hilda (kicking Tyler away), and the third part suddenly Tyler (imitating Hilda)?

• Simon, after being asked by Hilda if he knows what Leona’s problem is and how to wake her up:
  「知っていると言えば知っているが。現状ではどうしようもない」
  Is that first sentence just a rather complicated way of saying “Yes, I do know.”?

[Daisoujou]

Incomplete answers, others please join in!

@TobiasW

What exactly does そんな馬鹿なと add to the sentence? Is he saying/thinking it, while shaking his head again vehemently?

My interpretation was exactly that, yeah, just tuck the もう一度 into his thoughts too. He thinks something like “this absurd thing again” while shaking his head.

@TobiasW

I guess the と is the quotation particle, and maybe it’s followed but the topic particle は, but what’s the remainder of とはいいつつも?

つつ is a grammatical construct meaning sort of “while” and adding も appears to make it always have the nuance closer to “despite.” It’s preceded by a masu-stem, so I think you’re right about the parts you identified, and what you’re missing is the いい is just 言い. The rest of the sentence following “despite” seems a little odd but I think it’s contrasting her relief with the way she said it and whatnot. Like she doesn’t admit to being relieved, it’s just kind of a “there’s no way I did that” however she is showing relief.

@TobiasW

“While Hilda is holding her smartphone and bowing and scraping, she’s kicking Tyler (who’s doing a skillful impression of her) so that he goes away.”

I believe this is just saying her kick is really good, actually. 真似 can also be something like “action,” and I found this question that at least corroborates how I interpreted that.

@TobiasW

• Is that first sentence just a rather complicated way of saying “Yes, I do know.”?

Yeah, I think the idea is kind of like “speaking about knowing, I do know.” Kind of a way to emphasize that in contrast to what he can’t do, which is, well, anything at all with that information haha.

[TobiasW]

Thanks for the answers, and sorry for the late reply! I got a bit sidetracked.

Answer to answers

@Daisoujou

つつ is a grammatical construct meaning sort of “while” and adding も appears to make it always have the nuance closer to “despite.” It’s preceded by a masu-stem, so I think you’re right about the parts you identified, and what you’re missing is the いい is just 言い. The rest of the sentence following “despite” seems a little odd but I think it’s contrasting her relief with the way she said it and whatnot. Like she doesn’t admit to being relieved, it’s just kind of a “there’s no way I did that” however she is showing relief.

Oooh. Yeah, that’s what I was missing! The とは instead of と didn’t help, as well as the missing kanji. That totally fits, thanks!

@Daisoujou

I believe this is just saying her kick is really good, actually. 真似 can also be something like “action,” and I found this question that at least corroborates how I interpreted that.

Ah! I think then it might be that the skill she’s displaying is doing both of these opposing things simultaneously, being polite on the phone and kicking Tyler. Or her kick is just really good, yeah. Wouldn’t put that past Hilda

But… is the next sentence (それ以上はしつこくせず、タイラはその場を少し離れた……。) “Without further pestering her, Tyler went a bit away from this place.”?

If it’s not an imitation, was the pestering that he said 「コイツ、普段は不良っぽくしてても、こーゆう時に育ちの良さが出るよなぁ」, she heard him, and that’s what she’s kicking him in the first place? (I originally assumed the pestering was the imitiation, and he just thought the sentence or something.)

@Context

「とりあえず、レオナの親に連絡しないと」
「そうだな」
廊下に出ると、携帯電話の使用が許されたスペースを見付け、
ヒルダはレオナの家に電話をかける……。
「……あ、……モシモシ……。朝早くにすみません……昼田と申します。
いつもお世話になってます……」
「コイツ、普段は不良っぽくしてても、こーゆう時に育ちの良さが出るよなぁ」
ヒルダはスマホを持ってペコペコしながらも、あっちへ行けとタイラを蹴飛ばす、器用な真似を見せる。
それ以上はしつこくせず、タイラはその場を少し離れた……。
ナースステーションの方へ行くと看護師たちがせわしなく

Ah, and for what it’s worth, I just accidentially found out that 真似 was actually earlier used as “action” too! In a previous chapter, Simon said 「ふむ。そうだね。数えるのを放棄するほどに、このような真似を繰り返してきたよ」, admitting that he certainly did similar actions earlier, when accused of having commited other crimes.

---

Maybe someone has an idea for the last unanswered question?

@TobiasW

Tyler, thinking a bit about how things are different in the last loop, however…
……敢えて共通点を見出すとするならば、昨日も今日も、被害者は同じ、ということくらいか……。

• What does 敢えて mean there? I can’t find a meaning that seems to fit.
• What’s the とする here? I know “volitional + とする”, which would be “to try” among other things. That would fit, but 見出す is dictionary form.

[anon99047008]

Unanswered question

I held off, because I’m not totally satisfied with my interpretation, but I think that the trouble with finding a good 敢えて definition is that Jisho just doesn’t really do a good job of an English gloss this time. One of the definitions of 敢えて in Japanese:

やりにくいことを押しきってするさま。無理に。

I would interpret that roughly as, “The state of pushing through difficult things. Forcibly.”

In context, the literal phrasing (including the entirety of the first bit) could be like, “If I were to push through the difficulty (implied: of not wanting to be in such a position to have to do so) and pick out a common denominator/feature/point…”

It’s a little awkward and something of a free interpretation, but for me, I kinda took this 敢えて (again, in conjunction with the rest of the first bit) to be used in the same spirit as we might use, “If I had to pick a common denominator/If I were forced to pick a common denominator…”

I realize it’s not a perfect one-to-one of the word, but it feels like the right expression to me, and fwiw, Yomi-chan does have the “venture (often overcoming reluctance or failure)” meaning that is pretty close to this. (Perhaps with that in mind the most natural English phrasing could be, “If I were to venture a guess as to the common denominator…”

The とするなら I’m even less convinced I’m correct, but I’ll still throw out my theory and you can either take it or leave it. I think it’s kinda just being used in the same way as とすれば/としたら/とすると. The examples show those usages being used with dictionary forms of verbs. The reason I’m unhappy is because if it is being used that way, why isn’t it listed as a potential form with the rest of those? It makes sense that it’s being used this way, though, so it’s what I ultimately settled on for my own purposes.

Overall, I interpreted the sentence (in relatively natural English) to be along the lines of:

“If (とするなら) I had to (敢えて) pick a common denominator (共通点を見出す), yesterday and today (昨日も今日も), the victims were the same (被害者は同じ), or something to that extent (ということくらいか)”

Again, I’m not super happy with it, but it fit the context enough for me to feel like I understood the gist of what was going on enough to continue with the chapter. Others might disagree with me, and I would definitely be willing to take their word over mine.

[TobiasW]

Answer to unanswered question answer

That definition of 敢えて feels pretty strong, but I can see where you’re coming from.

とするなら being treated like the と + する[conditionals] makes sense! It’s a bit weird that the only English mention I found about it was on a website saying that “You don’t tend to see とするなら so I’ve omitted it as an option from above.”, but a conditional after “to assume that such is the case” とする definitely fits there. I guess the author just really wanted to use なら. (I’m definitely not good enough with conditionals to know why.)

[MissDagger]

Well, months and months later, I’m here!

Also wanted to mention here that the extra 15+ WK levels I now have made a difference in reading. Several words I recognized now than I would have had months ago. So that was nice.

Ended up with 158 (saved) lookups, with some fairly elusive stuff that I used google translate from a picture to figure out (reading on the Switch is definitely a disadvantage for speed and the really tricky bits). Considering this was the longest chapter yet, and it had about 50 less look up than chapter 3, I definitely call my extra WK levels a win.

Chapter thoughts

And I’m so glad you guys discussed things because I completely missed that Leona is/was a looper. That feels like a pretty big miss from me.

Otherwise, I was right that looping had started. Just have to say “I told you so”

Yeah, Hilda’s and Tyler’s screaming at the start was pretty annoying. Although both’s screaming is understandable.

The doctor guy was pretty annoying, but there was this stretch of narrative screens with the occasional dialog that killed me a lot in the middle somewhere. Also Simon can stop speaking quite so polite, he is much harder to understand.

I did not see Leona already looping. How patient most she be to ask for the geocache explanation every time?!?! Can you imagine that? Or always working in the konbini (or pretend working there at least).

And of course, if she’s looping and she’s in a coma because of that for some reason, then the other two might be as well. And how does this fit into the original fairytale about a wish/power in an object that you can’t get back, and 探し女? Well, I guess I’ll see, the rest of you already knows. xD

@Context

「コイツ、普段は不良っぽくしてても、こーゆう時に育ちの良さが出るよなぁ」
ヒルダはスマホを持ってペコペコしながらも、あっちへ行けとタイラを蹴飛ばす、器用な真似を見せる。

I know this is months later, but anyway. Tyler is teasing Hilda with say that usually she’s no good/rude, but now (during the call) her good upbringing comes out. And Hilda, being her usual self, continues her conversation (showing some real skill) and kicks at Tyler with very good technique/skill (read accurate maybe ). So that is kinda how I see those two lines going together. I had trouble here too.

[Daisoujou]

@MissDagger

Also wanted to mention here that the extra 15 WK levels I now have made a difference in reading. Several words I recognized that I would have had months ago. So that was nice.

Not a lot specifically to say in response right now, but I’m very happy to see you getting back to it, and great job being a little more comfortable than before! Real growth. Some stuff might stay a little tricky, but I think you’ll get used to Simon over time at least.