Starting to feel irritated with strict 'reading' pronunciations that are or are not accepted

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As I try to make my way through the various levels of radicals, kanji READINGS (‘pronunciation’, is more what I’d call them?) and kanji MEANINGS, I’m starting to feel irritated that WaniKani is marking some of my guesses as ‘wrong’, and therefore not allowing me to progress or unlock the next set of characters.

So for example, while I can’t provide any SPECIFIC or exact instances…I think there were kanji for Construction, and for Ten, where the only accepted or ‘correct’ readings were written in a slightly different way from what I myself may have entered. So for Construction, I think I entered ‘Ko’ (or maybe ‘Ko + U’) and it was marked as ‘wrong’. For Ten, I entered either ‘Ju’ (or vice versa, as Ju + U’?) and it was marked wrong.

I feel like such instances of WaniKani marking my guesses as ‘wrong’, are overly strict. First off, is there really that much difference in those readings, or how I’d written them out, vs how WaniKani writes them out (i.e., ‘ju’ vs ‘juu’)? Also, how many of us are here because we want to be able to READ OUT LOUD - and with 100% native-speaker accuracy - various kanji, vs how many of us simply want to be able to read/understand kanji?

I’d prefer if WaniKani ‘lightened up’ a bit on this aspect, so that if we enter ‘ko’ vs ‘kou’, or ‘ju’ vs ‘juu’, that it would still accept it as ‘correct’ (even if the site added the caveat that ‘while your answer is very close, note that the better reading response is such and such…’

Thoughts?

Thanks!

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Yes, there is. This topic comes up sometimes but fundamentally Japanese views long and short vowels as totally distinct and if you get those wrong when speaking you’re going to quickly become unintelligible or force someone to work backwards to think about what other possibilities you could’ve meant. It’s a bit of a pain at first, but it will 100% be to the benefit of your ability to learn Japanese to try to start thinking of そ vs そう for instance as being just as different as if you had substituted for ど or any other totally wrong sound.

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Yeah… I certainly understand your point, vis-a-vis words that I already know. So like that ‘ie’ (house) must be said differently from ‘iie’ (no). But I feel that it’s really ‘not right’…much harder…when WaniKani expects us to know …or remember…precisely how to pronounce/write out the reading for the kanji for Construction, for example, and when we may not even know any actual words yet, that contain that kanji.

In other words, because I already know (very well) the words for ‘house’ and ‘no’, and that they have two distinct pronunciations, it’s easy for me to remember the pronunciations for each.

I don’t know…I just feel/assume that most people are here on WaniKani because they want to learn how to READ kanji…not how to read it out loud, and in a ‘perfect’ manner.

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Imagine an English learning platform that accepted rid instead of read or reed, because sometimes i has the same sound as e - would that be useful or misleading? Those are three distinct words.

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This kind of sounds as if what might work best for you is to learn via words without doing direct kanji study first, which is totally fine and people succeed in Japanese that way, it just means stopping Wanikani. Maybe it’s a little early to make that call, but if that feeling persists, I’d consider it.

From my experience most people here intend to use the language in a more holistic way which is going to require being able to understand spoken Japanese and speak it themselves, at which point you want to know the correct readings. Even if you don’t, if you ever have to look a word up without directly copying and pasting it, you need to know the way to “spell” the kanji that are being used in kana, for instance.

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Ju and juu are very different. So are Ko and kou, and ie and iie. This matters greatly not just in writing, but also in speaking Japanese. If WK accepted that, it would simply be wrong.

WK does have safeguards in place for readings. For example many kanji have multiple readings. If it’s another reading of the same type (onyomi for example), it’ll usually accept it as an alternate or it’ll give a warning. If it’s a different type, it typically won’t accept it, but you’ll get a warning and not an error… So in the case of 家, for example, the reading is いえ but if you typed in the alternate reading of うち it shouldn’t result in an error. I don’t remember the exact behavior for this one but at the very least it would be a warning.

But if you write いいえ for it, it will be marked as wrong because it simply IS wrong.

If the alternate reading is a perfectly matching vocabulary (for vocabularies that are made up of one kanji), it’ll usually give a warning. Likewise on a vocabulary card with one kanji, if you type in the kanji reading it’ll usually give a warning and not an error.

So WK already has loads of safeguards for people who get card types confused or think of alternate answers. But it won’t safeguard for you being wrong. (But hey if you really want to do that, you can use scripts/apps that allow “Anki mode” and then you can choose to mark yourself as correct even when it’s not. I don’t know if I’d recommend doing that, but it’s your learning journey and your choice. A better compromise is using a script/app that allows “undo” and you can just try again and put in the correct answer)

I will agree that remembering kanji when you don’t know vocab already can be hard. I don’t like it either. I wish when a kanji was unlocked that it would also unlock one vocabulary that uses that reading. This could be done by using compound words where the other kanji is always from a previous level.

However, that doesn’t mean you can’t do this yourself. There is a tab that shows what it’s used in. Make use of that to commit one to memory in advance. Or use a dictionary to look one up that you think you’d remember better. I always try to learn a matching vocab at the same time because that helps my retention.

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Even if you’re only trying to learn to read, and don’t care about being able to speak (which I understand completely!), one thing you’ll find when you start reading is that depending on the author, target audience, tone of the writing, etc, the kanji won’t always be written out. I’ve also seen cases where, in order to create emphasis, an author spelled out a word using katakana instead of kanji.

For a quick example, in level 7, Wanikani has us learn the vocab word 本当に. Spelled out in hiragana, it is ほんとうに, and if you try to enter ほんとに without the extra う, Wanikani will mark it wrong. I have seen 本当に written with the kanji plenty of times in books. But, I’m also reading volume 2 of the Card Captor Sakura manga right now, and one of the characters just used that word…but it was spelled out in hiragana, and the Kanji was not given. Because Wanikani insisted I learn the correct spelling, I was able to recognize the word in both forms.

Between that and the fact that Japanese depends a lot on context for figuring out which word is being used, knowing exactly how a word is spelled will be indispensable. If you look up ‘しょ’ and then ‘しょう’ in a dictionary, you’ll get a ton of different words that are pronounced with each spelling. If an author chooses to spell out the word instead of using the kanji, you’ll have to figure out which word they’re meaning based on context, and it’ll be much easier if you can narrow things down based on whether it’s the shortened or elongated vowel sound!

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Thanks for all your thoughts here. Yeah…I think my main goal for learning a fair amount of kanji is simply to help me for when I’m here or there in Japan…looking at various signage (say at a park, or museum, etc.) and I want to try and get a general understanding of what the sign might be saying. My sense is that if a person like myself doesn’t have enough overall knowledge of various words/vocabulary, that simply understanding what various kanji may represent, can still help me take a good guess as to what a sign may be trying to say (even if, again, I don’t know the actual Japanese words for those kanji, or how to pronounce them, but simply that they represent, for e.g., the concepts of ‘enter’ or ‘mouth’ or ‘person’ etc.

As always, it seems the more I get into studying Japanese, the more questions and quandaries I come across…where I feel stumped…disheartened at how slow I seem to be progressing, etc. I guess the fact that I’m more or less self-taught also presents a challenge, as I am probably utilizing at least ten different modes of study: various books, Youtube channels, podcasts, apps, websites, etc. But, I just keep trying to remind myself that I consider this a life-long learning process…that I don’t expect to ever ‘master’ Japanese…and that I’m surely better now, than I was yesterday…and the day before that…and the month before that… :wink: If I can get to the point where I can have a basic conversation with someone (even if I make a mistake here and there…or I have to say something in a more roundabout way - because I don’t know a particular word), then I will feel I’ve reached my goal. But as it is, right now, I can’t even have a basic conversation, for even when I attempt to do so with a Japanese friend, I am quickly at a loss for vocabulary, such that we both immediately revert back to speaking in English.

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Even at level 60 this is the most common mistake I make during reviews.

But since the main benefit of using WaniKani, for me, is learning readings, it would be useless, for me, if it wasn’t strict with those readings.

As a beginner learner one might think that こ vs こう or じゅ vs じゅう is only a “small” mistake. But my impression is that when you try to speak with native speakers they will often not understand what you are saying. I think this is almost as much of a difference as あ vs お.

Also you won’t find words in dictionaries if you don’t know how to type them correctly.

But I also think that learning readings of single kanjis is not easy / very effective and it will get better the more vocab you learn (with correct readings.)

If you are only interested in meanings of kanji, maybe WaniKani isn’t the best use of your time. A good Kanji deck in Anki might be a good alternative.

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Mmm… not sure I totally get all that you said but… :wink: . I do in fact want to speak Japanese…and up until recently, was more focused on the speaking/ comprehension aspect, versus the reading aspect. It was only after I spent 2.5 months in Tokyo, on my own, that I understood how important it was to be able to read, as well. When I found myself in massive train stations, or passing by restaurants that did not cater to tourists (menus only written in Japanese), etc., I found myself at a great loss. (And sure, while Google Translate helps in a pinch, it’s obviously much easier if, with a glance of the eye, you can quickly interpret what the eye is seeing…)

I guess what I was trying to say regarding understanding kanji, and my own personal feeling that it’s not as important for me to know how to SAY the kanji, is that I think just knowing the overall Concept of the kanji will serve my particular needs/goals. If I can know the kanji for left vs right, enter vs exit, caution, danger, women, men, meat, fish, … you know…various key words for navigating museums, restaurants, public parks, etc., I think that might be enough for me.

As mentioned, my greater focus is on speaking/comprehending, so even in those instances where I may not be able to understand some kanji, hopefully a nearby person could help. It’s also helpful that many park, etc. signs in kanji will often include the kana in smaller letters.

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Thanks. Yes…I’ve seen lots of mentions of Anki, but have yet to try it out. I feel a bit ‘all over the place’ with my studies. In fact, just a few minutes ago, I decided to check out Bunpro, for additional learning. (My initial sense of Bunpro is that it seems very well-designed and dynamic…)

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I like Bunpro even more than WaniKani.

When starting at zero it may not be the best (easiest) to learn basic grammar (I would add some books for this).
But I think it is perfect to repeat/review N5 and N4 topics and also learn N3, N2 and N1.

I only use Bunpro for grammar. I’ve tried it for vocab as well, but don’t like it as much.

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I was just reacting to (misinterpreting?) this comment:

Also, I took Spanish back in high school and dropped it because the teacher was focused almost entirely on learning how to speak and I, a massive introvert, only wanted to learn how to read! :laughing: I really wish now I had stuck with it back then, but what can you do…

The main point I was making was that as useful and necessary as kanji are, there will be times where they won’t be used, so knowing the spelling of the individual words will allow you to read them however the author decided to write them. Also, yes, furigana (the small kana above/next to the kanji that say how to pronounce those kanji) is amazing - I love furigana! :slightly_smiling_face:

As far as your goals, if Wanikani is frustrating you, maybe I agree with other comments about trying another service (I’ve never used Anki, but Kitsun and Marumori (created by people here on these very forums, so you can find them with a search) allow for hitting undo when you get things wrong. So if you entered ‘こ’ when it was expecting ‘こう’, you can hit ‘Redo’ and enter in ‘こう’ and it’ll treat it as if you had answered correctly. Marumori also has grammar SRS, which is what I’ve been using it for. It’s still in active development (they expect to cover the remaining N3 grammar points in the next few months, I believe, before moving on to N2 and N1).

Personally, I’d still say that’s a bit risky - if you ever decide you want more than just basic concepts, you’ll have to unlearn some things. (edited to clarify: hitting redo on the vocab is what I’d consider risky, because you might commit the incorrect spellings to memory). Also, while I don’t have any specific examples I can think off off the top of my head, sometimes I run into compound words (ie, vocab words that use multiple kanji) where the meaning doesn’t feel like a logical one based on the meaning of the individual kanji… That may be a personal thing for me that others don’t run into, though, so not sure about that.

That said, it will definitely be a start to have learned the concepts, and learning something is always better than not learning anything! Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck in your language learning journey!

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You are right. I tried Bunpro very early and didn’t Like it at all.

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I can totally understand the frustration—you’re stepping into a totally different world and there are a lot of things that seem weird or superfluous at first. This happened to me too where there were many situations where something didn’t make sense until I got deeper into my Japanese learning journey.

In my personal opinion at my current stage of learning, Wanikani’s approach of teaching onyomi (Chinese reading) by themselves rather than in context is worse than other approaches. Kanji Garden is an app you can check out which will always teach you kanji alongside a word that uses one of its onyomi (Chinese reading) and kunyomi (native Japanese reading).

However, while ‘kou’ and ‘ko’ might seem like they’re the same, internalizing that as true would really hurt your Japanese learning, even in the short term! I think this might actually be a reflection of primarily using romaji (latin characters representing Japanese phonetics). To us in English, the difference between kou and ko seems really arbitrary, but if you see it written in hiragana as こう vs. こ and realize one of these has a long vowel, it starts to become more well-differentiated.

In Japanese, each character you read in hiragana gets equal duration when you’re pronouncing words. So for example imagine if you each character gets 1 second, then こう gets 2 seconds and こ gets 1. Twice as long, right? :smiley:

I realize maybe none of these make it less frustrating for you, but hopefully they help you understand that Wanikani is trying to set you up for future success rather than be overly pedantic.

Happy to help in any way I can as well if you have additional questions!

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a lot of this will disappear as your vocabulary grows; it won’t even be noticeable and you’ll have more issues when exceptions arise and throw things off.

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Letting memorization be “strict” right now gives a nice return even almost immediately, reading or listening just after the review.

This is also that remember reading strictly have no cons (unlike English word-by-word translation).

The real issue is just, how to remember well and taking not too much time. – This is a hard one, but I think memorization is easier only you have listening or reading experience, or even just repeating the audio or reading aloud. Mnemonics may help. Shorter repeats, and self study script, may help.

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Yes there is.

In English is there any difference between “bot” and “boot”? “red” and “reed”? “knight” and “night”?

In Japanese ここ (koko) vs. こうこう (koukou). Two completely different words, regardless of whether your are reading, writing, listening or speaking.

From what I have seen here on the forums, quite a few. There are a lot of people using Wanikani that are living and working in Japan and for us speaking, and speaking correctly, is important. From my personal experience, a common contributor to my having trouble being understood (and me understanding what is being said) is long vs short vowel (as in the example above).

My feeling is that I am very glad it does not do this. All that would be doing is reinforcing/embedding an incorrect spelling in our memory.

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