Rethinking WK

No one is arguing that explicit study is not valuable. The MIA approach suggests explicitly studying grammar and vocab in the beginning stages. In any case, I’m only sharing my own personal experience as an N4-ish level learner switching away from WK. I didn’t follow this mass immersion approach from the beginning, but it makes a lot of sense for me now and is working well for me now. That’s all I can say.

Given that things like Antimoon/AJATT/MIA have really only been practical since things like SRS and an almost inexhaustible supply of native language media (ie youtube, netflix) have become widely available, it’s not really surprising that there’s not a lot of research out there about it.

Oh, and I just realised my post can be read as implying that you should switch your approach to MIA. What I meant was: I recommend switching over to Anki, or rather, it’s definitely possible to study the WK content in Anki and remove the bits you don’t like. Definitely wouldn’t recommend switching to MIA to everyone.

But no one in MIA is saying that study isn’t necessary. :grin:

Matt himself had 2 years of study before he even found AJATT.
Yoga at one point suspended most immersion and went through all 3 dictionary of Japanese grammar books.

I don’t really know much about AJATT but I know even Katsumodo recommended at least one textbook. (the All about Particles book).

Oh, I didn’t mean to imply that I thought you were trying to recruit me :). Just musing in general about MIA since it comes up so much. I would be curious though how the meanings-only followed by sentence mining works out for you long term. That seems like it would be a scary jump after investing so much time into the regular WK method.

I haven’t read the site in a while. I seemed to remember it discouraging direct study in favor of just picking it up from repeated exposure, but I may have remembered incorrectly.

True, but they do put forward a “model” of language acquisition that isn’t peer-reviewed or even tested on a larger scale, while dismissing widely used frameworks like CEFR in a single sentence, despite the fact that it is successfully being used for a variety of teaching and learning styles and does not at all prescribe a single approach of learning a language. In fact, a lot of immersion schools work with the CEFR for assessment purposes so it’s odd to criticize it in this context to begin with.

I can’t help but point out that I’d be very cautious indeed when following an approach or modeling your learning on a concept (for lack of a better word) that seems to be based exclusively on the limited personal experience and anecdotal evidence from two people who do not appear to be professionally trained in language teaching or linguistics.

That is especially the case in this instance when we talk about a “model” that markets itself as a “the most effective path to foreign language proficiency” (when the research consensus is that a single most effective path simply does not exist), claims to “build a foundation in language acquisition theory” (without actually referencing a sound theoretical foundation), and presents itself as nothing short of a visionary approach (when foreign language immersion has been a thing since 1965 when it was first developed in Québec for the province’s English-speaking minority) while it also (ever so subtly) asks for financial support and is being monetized through YouTube.

I think that most learners employ a variety of approaches anyway and everyone should do what works for them, and I also understand that you and others on here weren’t advertising it in that sense so I don’t want this to sound like my concerns are directed at anyone personally.

Thanks. I think studying isolated vocab for the purpose of reinforcing individual kanji has worked for me so far, but the Anki would let me pare it down to a more manageable load. I’m nervous to try it, though. If I’m wrong I’ll have thrown away all that WK progress or at least stalled it for as long as it takes to find out whether or not the switch was worthwhile.

Truth be told, I haven’t read much about current ‘language acquisition theory’, and part of why I can’t be bothered to read it (unlike some users on the forum who try to use it to refine their approach – that’s a personal choice, and I can respect their dedication) is that it simply seems like we’ve drawn almost no conclusions so far. I think such research has invalidated more things than it has validated, and so I’d much rather experiment on my own on the basis of whatever I’ve found to work for me so far. Like you said, I think each person should use the methods that work best for him/her.

I’ll try not to ramble too much, because I know I penned a fairly vehement response to a thread about the ‘input hypothesis’ and why I think it’s not sufficient to stick strictly to ‘input’ in order to learn (and so I don’t want to reproduce it here), but I’ll just say that my experience is that massive engagement with the language is more helpful: even if you’re just listening to Japanese music or reading Japanese texts, I think some attempt needs to be made to understand the material in order for the process to be efficient for learning. Letting audio run in the background or scanning a page repeatedly with your eyes will probably get some words to stick after a while, but understanding at least some of those words will aid retention. This isn’t even language acquisition theory, it’s how our memories work: it’s easier to retain something when we understand it, or when we’re able to structure our knowledge based on things we already know.

Literally the only skill I’ve found to grow without much conscious effort during immersion is listening comprehension: falling asleep with an anime episode playing for months on end let me follow the Tobira recordings without much difficulty, even when my eyes and brain couldn’t come up with the readings for the words on the page fast enough. My theory is that listening while making a bare minimum of effort to understand teaches your brain to pick apart syllables in the target language. Actually understanding the words I heard, however, required my vocabulary to expand, which did not happen automatically.

My French fluency grew fastest on the night I got lost on the Eiffel Tower: I translated back and forth between French and English in order to pretend that I was a tour guide so my friends and I wouldn’t be targeted by pickpockets who might have thought we were clueless tourists (we really were, however, and we were students, at that). That conscious effort to rapidly express myself untied my tongue, and I found myself relating the night’s events to my French host as I travelled home that evening more fluently than I ever could before.

To conclude, mass immersion while making the effort to understand will likely lead to plenty of vocabulary being acquired, but if you want to accelerate the process of becoming able to use the language fluently for expression, then you’ll have to get used to using what you’ve learnt yourself, and such practice is the sort of stuff that doesn’t (traditionally) feature in the MIA and other methods based on the ‘input hypothesis’.

(PS: I know I used ‘you’ a lot, but I’m really just addressing language learners in general. I’m not aiming this at anyone in particular.)

I think we’re in agreement when it comes to the conclusion that everyone should focus on what works best for them, but I would like to briefly stick up for second language acquisition research and point out that what is out there really has validated a lot of theories and ideas and that the combination of input, interaction, and output that you are describing in your post was formalized by Long (interaction hypothesis) and Swain (pushed output hypothesis) in the 1980s and has since been updated and expanded to include the role of negotiating meaning, explicit feedback etc. This is not to discredit anything you said by the way, I just wanted to provide it for context.

It is all the more bewildering that parts of the language learning community are so hung up on Krashen’s input hypothesis when SLA research moved on from an exclusively input-focused approach about 35 years ago. That has actually become its own field of research, i.e. the discrepancy between research findings and what is going on in the foreign language classroom, which says a lot about how conservative the teaching field can be.

Don’t worry. むしろ望むところでした!I said the things I did about L2 acquisition because I was hoping that you might correct me if I was wrong, since you seem to have some knowledge of more recent research. I certainly think that such research is worthwhile, it’s just that I was under the (mistaken, it seems) impression that little progress had been made. After all, the most popular books on learning languages quickly, when they do reference research, don’t seem to be particularly certain about anything. Or rather, if the optimal method were already clear, people wouldn’t be able to keep writing new books about this, no? But as you said, it seems research has not agreed on a single ‘best’ method, even if it has validated various ideas.

I didn’t encounter this idea before I started learning Japanese, so perhaps there’s something about the Japanese language community that drives this preference/curiosity in favour of the input hypothesis? One possibility, I think, is that Japanese just seems so shockingly foreign compared to almost any other foreign language that European language speakers might care to study. I think even Chinese might be more intuitive, since it at least has the subject-verb-object order in common with most Indo-European languages. As a result, perhaps some learners found success in massive exposure to Japanese in their studies, because that helped them to feel more familiar with Japanese, and that’s perhaps what helped drive such interest. That aside, Japanese people are known (stereotypically, at least) for working hard and being dedicated, so perhaps some learners sought to emulate them by taking their language studies to the extreme by isolating themselves inside a Japanese-language bubble.

My understanding with the input hypothesis was that you should focus on what they call “comprehensible input”. I’m not sure where the idea that you could learn just by listening without engaging. Is that common way of thinking with MIA/AJATTERS? That sounds pretty ridiculous. I haven’t really studied the input theory, just watched the Krashen video and some others. From that I went, “Okay, lot’s of input, got it”. Started with some easier podcasts where I could understand maybe only 60% at the start (there’s probably some preferable amount here), but from there gradually moved on to stuff aimed at natives. Now, I did have some classes to it wasn’t the only thing I did, but I found it very effective. Anecdotally, people who have concentrated on input more have improved a lot more than the average student, me included.

But yeah, I agree with your post 100% about the engagement part. Conscious effort is very important. I think one reason I feel like I make huge progress everytime I talk in Japanese is because I have to consciously really make an effort to understand the other person like my life depended on it. Of course when I watch Let’s Plays and such I’m usually focusing on the video alone, but I don’t really mind if I miss a few things here and there.

Maybe I’m just making the wrong assumptions/misreading things. I believe the MIA website says that it’s OK to jump into native material early, even if you don’t understand very much. To me, that’s essentially the same as not engaging, especially since the MIA site also encourages going with a sort of ‘grammar lite’ i.e. only learning enough grammar so you can quickly start consuming native content with some understanding (the question being exactly what that ‘some’ is). The reason I say so is that diving into native content super early, while probably good for your ears (cf. what I said about being able to distinguish sounds more easily), is probably going to involve near-zero comprehension. I mean, most material isn’t designed such that you can pick up new words through context alone. Not even textbooks are that simple, let alone native material. For example, I watched anime attentively for the first time before I started learning Japanese, and I genuinely think the only words I picked up from that anime were ダーリン、エッチ、僕 and 愛している (if anyone’s wondering: it was Darling in the FranXX). And I’m the sort of person who likes to try to work things out based on the subtitles, so… so much for intuitively picking things up.

That said, I can’t contest this, because I’m one of those people as well: back when I was learning French, everyone else, including other top students, stuck to using English-French dictionaries and translations. I was the only person who used monolingual dictionaries and resources for almost everything, and I ended up with much wider knowledge than everyone else. (I had expressions marked incorrect in my essays because my native French teacher had never seen them before: I pulled them out of the dictionary.) Input, immersion or exposure (I think I prefer the last two words?) are very useful tools, and very important, in my opinion, for mastering natural, native-like expression.

I said “last question” in my last post, but that was to the previous replies :wink:

We can definitely solve this. Do you extract content from your other types of input and make a significant amount (hundreds, at least) of cards in Anki? If so, how are you faring with that? If not, that’s probably a good test, at the expense of some extra work for a month or two, to see how the process might work for you if you were to transition to Wani…Anki. I think that should be enough to make a decision with good confidence in this case!

That’s a very good question. If I’m being super embarrassingly honest, I’ve made many decks and cards, and didn’t really study them long term. I’ve made plenty of short term decks, which can be a perfectly valid use of the program, but the problem with long term use of Anki for me is the constant temptation to reinvent the study strategy as a form of distraction or just a freshening up of the monotony.

I know what you mean!

I think getting some longer-term experience with consistent content will give you a good feel for how you like Anki’s algorithm, or whatever adjustments you have/will make to it, and be a fair indicator of your satisfaction using the WaniKani decks.

Thanks for this thread, by the way. Now I’m considering whether and how to migrate more of my own learning from WaniKani to Anki :stuck_out_tongue:

A lot to unpack here. First of all one doesn’t need a great deal of Japanese fluency to enjoy living and working in Japan. Secondly moving to Japan will not necessarily result in a substantial improvement in Japanese.

And as a 10 year resident of Japan let me tell you. Kanji has served me a heck of a lot better than listening or speaking. Because you’ll find a decent amount of people that can speak English and honestly how much language do you need to get by for everyday life. But… To be literate is so important.

I would keep trucking with wanikani. Learning kanji is honestly a pia time suck. There isn’t anyway around that point.

I don’t know anything about Mia or aljatt but I do know that I do live in Japan in the inaka with my Japanese family (no one of which is a great English speaker) and I spend my days with my My mother in law listening to the TV prattle on. sometimes I go days without hearing or speaking English. My Japanese has remained at upper B1 lower B2 for YEARS.

Lately I’ve been making a concentrated effort to study and have been doing much better. So I guess consuming Japanese media won’t hurt but I wouldn’t make it a priority.

Honestly my level seems to improve the most when I’m in difficult situations. When I have to communicate or something bad will happen. So maybe take up a dangerous hobby? Lol

Good luck. I hope we both can jump over the intermediate hump… One day.

Thanks for sharing! I’ll have to think about those dangerous hobbies :). I think keeping up active study is really important wherever you live. You are right that immersion is not a free ride to fluency by itself. It’s nice reinforcement, though.

I recently rediscovered how much I love the iKnow.jp app, and then also discovered that some nice person on the forums here posted shared custom lessons by WK level (!!!). I added those to my study list having almost finished the core 1000, and have mixed in the outstanding WK vocab levels from my lesson queue. I’m going to stop new vocab lessons on WK for a while and see how it goes, since I feel like iKnow should be a far superior system for vocab. Only time will tell if it sticks, though.

Has anyone used iKnow long term, and how well did it stick or generally improve your skills?