📚📚 Read every day challenge - Spring 2022 🌸 🌱

[rikaiwisdom]

Summary Post

May 3
Final Fantasy VII

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This post is probably going to be huge so I think it’s best if I divide the replies so it doesn’t get too messy. Hoo boi, here I go:

Replies

Daisoujou

@Daisoujou

Maybe take a little while without and see how you’re feeling? It might not be easy to gauge since progress isn’t always readily perceptible but the experiment might at least show you if as soon as you stop SRS it makes you more anxious than you expected, or maybe instead it’s such a relief you feel sure right after you start it.

Yeah I think this could be a nice experiment. I guess it comes down to the old need to have everything perfect, I feel very uncomfortable with uncertainty sometimes. I managed to work a lot on my perfectionism with these challenges, I remember being annoyed when I missed a day and then by Winter’s challenge I was fine with it. Now I need to work on being fine with not doing things optimally.

@Daisoujou

I guess an alternative idea, if your mined sentences aren’t working to create enough of an attachment for you, is to try to be a little more selective about them or do some work with your card formats (images and the like that people add, if you don’t already) to try to artificially create a stronger attachment.

I think it’s not so much that they’re not working per se, only that I think they’re taking an extra effort that could go to just relaxing my approach and going through more things in the meantime, with a bit more varied context and a fresh mentality, with no “x number of words max” per day “limit”. I guess I’m looking for a more comfortable approach. Making cards is not actually huge work because usually it’s only a click in Houhou or in Yomichan, but… I’m not sure, I guess the issue is that I burn out on SRS after a while, because it’s straining to think about what to add, what not to add, how many words, “am I doing enough words today? Oh I barely added anything today, oh today again, oh I already added 20 words so have to stop (Houhou sadly doesn’t have a new cards per day limit, that’s probably a big downside)”, and so on. Too much mental gymnastics and technicalities sometimes. I’ve been testing with JP-JP cards with Yomichan+Anki and I think these are working much better, actually, so that’s good, though still fairly limited for me because I don’t add cards whose definition I don’t understand fully. An approach could be to only add these types of cards whenever I can and leave it at that that would also reduce the daily reviews and overall tediousness.

windupbird

@windupbird

It loses the magic after a while - even if it’s a sentence you pulled from something, you just see it in isolation over and over again in an SRS and it becomes “just another sentence” with no connection. It’s routine. It’s boring.

It often does feel boring, truth be told. It can get so… lifeless. It’s of course probably not pointless, because the method definitely works overall, I’d say. It just seems to be sold as the only valid method to learn a language “properly”, often coming from the Japanese learning community. I sometimes browse /r/languagelearning and it gives me the impression that there are many people there who advocate for the “read, read, read a lot” approach, among other things, even if the SRS population is still very prominent, though not as noisy as in the Japanese community. I wonder what makes Japanese different from other languages, if it’s something inherent to the language itself or the population that learns this language in particular. Sorry this is a random train of thought .

@windupbird

“Learning by doing” may be a slower, more fluid process than SRS, but imo it’s deeper, more long-lasting, more organic, and definitely more fun.

I think so too. I left the language school back then because it felt a bit slow, but the truth is that even if it was slow we did reading, listening, writing and speaking, and it was a much more effective and varied approach, looking back. Over time I’ve come to realise that if I hadn’t left the school I would have achieved a much higher level by now, not worrying about trying to find the best approach or the best pace. Though I wouldn’t go back to the school now, I think I would benefit from returning to my mindset of back then of just keep going, however slow or fast, while maximising fun and curiosity. I’m not sure when the other mentality started to take place, probably when I started researching (and potentially misunderstanding) self-study methods in the online community.

@windupbird

there are definitely some words I have looked up so often that I just know them now. I’m not deliberately studying them, they’re just used so often that they’re in my brain.

That’s really reassuring .

wiersm

@wiersm

As long as you can keep consuming enough native content, there should be no reason for SRS (just like with English).

Yeah that’s my thought as well. I’m not sure why I thought Japanese would be different, I suppose it just looks more intimidating than English ever looked for me . Probably because English already shared a lot of things with Spanish so I felt much more confident, whereas Japanese feels like a completely different beast.

natarin

@natarin

So this is basically the same dilemma I went through last challenge so I definitely feel you!

That’s a funny coincidence

@natarin

SRS was always a means to make reading possible, so once I started genuinely feeling like I could read things, SRS quickly felt like more of a chore than anything.

I like that reasoning. I’ve seen it before, people using SRS to acquire a first set of “critical” vocabulary and then off to the battlefield.

@natarin

once I started learning a bunch of kanji just from encountering them in reading

Do you still learn kanji like in WK or do you just acquire more vocabulary? Ever since I finished WK I’m not sure of how I should approach kanji learning, I’ve only been adding words while having a look at each individual kanji’s meaning and that’s about it, but no formal learning.

@natarin

Japanese is just fun now, all of my interactions with it are just like playing games I want to play, watching shows I want to watch, and looking things up as I need to within that. Without that pressure, all of these things have really ended up my main forms of leisure, even though they could arguably be “studying”

Honestly that sounds amazing. I hope I’m not mistaken, but I think I’ve seen you spend multiple hours many days with whatever you’re doing, simply because it kept pulling you in, and I always thought it was impressive. I wouldn’t be able to do that myself with my current approach because of that pressure you mention. English never felt like studying for me, either, because I never sat down to study it. I absorbed it in exactly the same way you are approaching Japanese, only over a long period of time.

@natarin

All of this rambling is to say that I definitely think SRS is really useful, and I absolutely would not be where I am now without it, but if it’s taking away from your enjoyment and time that you would love to use to just consume more content, dropping it is totally okay. It’s not like you’ll never learn anything ever again, it’s just harder to see like you said. But if you’re just having fun with what you’re doing you’re probably also less likely to get frustrated about a perceived lack of progress than if you’re doing more explicit study that you don’t really enjoy. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer here really; I can vouch that I’ve had an amazing time without SRS and absolutely still feel like I’m growing and learning, so it’s totally doable! Plus it’s not like it’s forever, you can always pick SRS up again if you get to a point where you think it’s more beneficial.

I think this is really good advice, and reassuring at the same time, tysm!

omk3

@omk3

I had never used SRS before Wanikani, and I must say I was impressed by its effectiveness, but I still find myself “relearning” words I know from just Wanikani when I finally come across them in context

It’s exactly the same for me. I encounter words from WK all the time that I don’t remember studying at all, and I burnt about 70% of them. Which is kinda disappointing if I think about the hundreds of hours it took me to reach Lv60 in total that could’ve been used to learn things more in context, but if anything I’m really grateful that at least the readings seem to have stuck very well, and now I’m able to guess correctly the reading of most words I encounter, if I know their kanji.

@omk3

It’s, I don’t know, as if I had looked at pictures of someone’s family, and learned to associate their names and life stories with the pictures, but then I finally meet them face to face, and all that hard work I put in memorizing pictures seems irrelevant, if that makes sense. Not worthless, but definitely not enough or particularly worthwhile.

I think that’s a great way of expressing it. I feel the same, I learnt to associate many words with their meanings, but I never internalised the idea behind them. I learnt to “get correct answers in a software”, as opposed to learning words. And it’s because I never got emotionally invested in them, nothing happened with them, it was purely going through a word list. Though, again, at least a portion of them stuck after all.

@omk3

After I’ve looked them up in my dictionary apps (Takoboto on Android, Midori on iOS at the moment), I always add them to a list named after the book I’m reading (one click within the app, not time at all). When I do that I can instantly see if the word is already added to this list or others. It’s interesting to see how often some words crop up (and how often I tend to look up the same words again and again).

That’s interesting! I think I’ve seen the takoboto list approach other times around this community, possibly coming from you, I can’t quite remember. Also thank you for reminding me I hadn’t installed it when I changed phone . I’ll keep the lists idea in mind.

@omk3

And I’m learning, that’s for sure. I have definitely learned new vocab from reading, and grammar too. And as I keep coming across them and looking them up, more and more sink in. It might be more efficient to use SRS, I know most people seem to claim so, but I’m not sure it would be the best use of my time. I know from experience I learn better in context (context I enjoy no less), that’s how I have successfully learned any other language I tackled so far, so why would Japanese be any different?

You’re right. It’s reassuring to know that other people use other methods and still learn just fine, even if not in the most efficient way. I don’t care much for efficiency either, which is a contradictory thing to say considering my post from the other day. I guess I could say I care about not getting stuck in a place where I feel I’m not going forward, and it’s good to see that that’s not necessarily bound to happen at all.

Redglare

@Redglare

I feel like study routines have a tendency to change depending on your goal as you progress, so nothing wrong with trying something you feel will be better for you.

Yeah I think you’re right. I have been doing the same thing with the same approach for a long time and I don’t know what it feels like to change direction and walk a different way, especially when most people seem to be walking the other way ;-; . Though ultimately all paths reach the same point, even if some take a bit longer.

@Redglare

I think my only advice, like you mentioned, is to let go of words you’ve mined that you feel are more difficult to learn because of lack of context. Either delete the sentence/word or whatever and wait until you find the word in another context. I don’t know how Anki sentence mining usually works, so take this with a grain of salt. Do whatever works best for you

To be fair I don’t even know how it works myself either . I just add what I want, with context sentences in the backside in the case of Yomichan and that’s about it. But yes, I think it’s good advice to get rid of whatever that doesn’t seem to be working. I don’t owe these artificial cards anything, after all, they’re only a tool. I could aim for only a small number of cards when I feel like it, as you do, and leave it at that. Perhaps a break from SRS altogether is due for a bit nonetheless.

sycamore

@sycamore

I feel like something important here might be what your goals with Japanese are?

That’s honestly a good and tricky question. The honest answer is that… I don’t really know specifically. I started learning out of pure curiosity. I thought it would be really cool to learn because I liked a lot of Japanese things in my childhood and still do to this day, so I applied to a language school many years back and got admitted. And I absolutely loved it, it always felt so much fun. It was never a specific thing that drove me, but more like… everything? It’s kinda complex to express, or I’m just very tired . It was similar with English, it wasn’t so much one specific thing but many at the same time. I wanted to watch movies, play games, read books, interact with the English and international community, and so on. I feel like with Japanese it’s similar, I want to be able to enjoy books, play Japanese games, connect with Japanese people, travel to Japan again, and a big etc. There’s a big aura that pulls me in and brightens my life a little bit, and it’s a struggle to put to words what exactly it is what I want to do. Is “everything” and answer? Video games are definitely a big factor, though.

@sycamore

however I have zero idea how many words I know etc so I could see it being a stressful approach for someone more focused on efficiency.

Yeah it’s exactly the same with English for me so it doesn’t really bother me. I don’t feel the need to quantify my vocabulary, I don’t even know how many words I know in Spanish. It’s not something that I think is worth keeping track of . The number of words growing in the SRS is mostly so I could see that I’m indeed being exposed to a wider and wider range of vocabulary, but ultimately I’m happy deleting them at any time.

@sycamore

One option could be to limit mining to maybe one book/game or medium and don’t do it for others?

That’s one nice option, though I don’t usually feel like doing anything else when my energy has been spent scrutinising one thing already. Honestly I think I’m walking in circles to allow myself to drop the SRS and I’m trying to rationalise this a lot when in fact it’s so easy to just stop using it . I guess I was just afraid of doing so and not getting anywhere, but everyone’s responses are giving me a lot of hope.

@sycamore

I think I have the opposite of this problem lol, in that I just spend all of my free time reading or playing things in Japanese and never do any meticulous study (it’s fine, it’s fine, it’s not like i signed up for the JLPT in two months or anything…)

I think it’s exactly because of not seeing Japanese as straining study that you all are improving a lot over time. I definitely need to return to that mentality . And also I hope I didn’t misunderstand the sarcasm, but I wish you very good luck with the JLPT!

GrumpyPanda

@GrumpyPanda

But to me, this sounds like you need to change the way you’re mining/srs’ing, not that you should drop SRS.

I think I’m starting to realise that overall I’m just burnt out of SRS and need a change of tactic, at least for a while. Replying to you all has made me realise that I’m trying to convince myself to keep pushing a study method that I’m not really enjoying very much, when I can just drop it and try something else for a bit. It has been very enlightening to me .

@GrumpyPanda

If you don’t like a sentence, don’t add it.
Personally when I mine, I have these sentences with uncommon words where I’m like “Woooh, this is such a nice sentence/word, I really wanna add that :3” and sometimes I have some sentences with really common words that I just don’t care for.

Yeah definitely, I think I need to be more selective of what I add, but also most importantly of when I add it. Sometimes it’s a word that seems to be important or common enough to learn, but in a context I don’t care about. I’m just usually not inclined to let it go, because it feels important to know.

@GrumpyPanda

I feel like this can help with both the things you’re hoping for, as you get to read more because you’re mining less of the things you read, and it can bring the joy back into mining/srs’ing. For me, mining has turned into a tiny little treasure hunt to find the sentences I really want to add c:

I think that sounds great, honestly. I think I’ve also had moments when I felt I enjoyed SRS a bit, but it might have been very dependant on mood. I would definitely benefit from adding less words, or better put, reducing or eliminating the pressure to add words overall.

@GrumpyPanda

But personally I don’t think you can beat a properly set up SRS in terms of efficiency. That efficiency does come at a price though, having to sit down every day and doing them flashcards

Yeah definitely, flashcards are very efficient and effective with the right method and the right mindset. It just seems so easy for them to be super boring, though ;-; .

MissDagger

@MissDagger

Boy, was that a trip! This was before internet in your pocket (2003!), and I had a physical, paper Eng-Swe dictionary.

That sounds extremely painful . I commend your dedication It’s so weird to think that these comfy tools haven’t always existed, now that we are all so used to them. I’m so grateful.

@MissDagger

Then about when I started I read this post: The end game… quitting the SRS . And I was all O_O O_O O_O

Thank you for linking this, I’ll definitely give it a read soon!

@MissDagger

I started to realize that there were words that would not stick via SRS for me. That learning words in isolation like this made it very hard to understand them.

Yeah that seems familiar. I mentioned it in a reply before, but I get the impression that sometimes I was learning how to type the correct answer, instead of internalising what the words meant, so the natural progression was to forget a lot of vocabulary after a while.

@MissDagger

In fact, my leech strategy is to mostly correctly my mistakes and let them move into burned, because I figure I will either understand them in context or eventually find such a good sentence that suddenly I just understand the word forever more. (Honestly that second case have happened a few times.) More SRS only leads to frustration and extra meaningless work.

This is definitely my experience as well. I burnt some words in WK that I kept having doubts about, and then I encounter them somewhere else with a very strong context and suddenly they click.

@MissDagger

The only way to know if now is the time to quit is probably to try it. What does it feel like not to do SRS for 3 months or 6 months?

@MissDagger

SRS is a means to an end. If you’ve gotten what you needed from it, then quit. If you are unsure if you are there yet, put things on vacation mode/equivalent and try it. Experiment, and don’t feel like whatever you choose to do is something you have to stick with. Maybe it only takes two weeks of no SRS to realize that: no actually, SRS is still right for me.

Or in a year’s time you’ll look back at this and go: huh, I really didn’t need SRS anymore.

You are completely right. I’ve also mentioned it in another reply but I think I’m subconsciously looking for reassurance and validation to quit the SRS, perhaps temporarily or permanently. It’s definitely food for thought, thank you so much.

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Okay that was a lot . Again thank you all so much for your input, I really appreciate it <3 .

On a side note, I mentioned Game Gengo the other day. Coincidentally, he released a video today with a list of video games currently on sale for the golden week (linking in case anyone is interested in any, again it’s a veeeery long video but there’s no need to watch it completely, can just skip to see if there’s anything that catches your eye, though the first minute and a half is important). So anyways, one of them was Team Zero Escape bundle, which grabbed my interest both from Game Gengo’s introduction of it and the price. If I remember correctly I’ve seen some of you play them, @natarin , ZTD is one of them, right? I know absolutely nothing about these games, but they seem interesting enough for a first contact. I… might consider getting it . So uh, thoughts? Is the language there too obscure or difficult to get into, or is it manageable?

This is the pack (they can also be bought separately)