R or L when singing Japanese songs?

[alo]

If you think that’s fun, try doing the Mandarin “r” where you curl your tongue back and then flick it forward for something like 人 (ren).

[BrotGiraffe]

Nice examples. Funnily enough, in the くれた example, on the same line, the から sounds very much like a standard English ‘l’.

[alo]

Yeah, just like くれた usually seems to use the harder “d” sound, から also seems to use the softer “L” sound.

I think in general it’s because the mouth opens slightly for ら versus れ where it maintains the same position throughout.

[Asursrus]

im a native mandarin speaker and i’ve just spent the past five minutes trying to figure out how i pronounce 人。。。

I still cant.

[darkness_rising]

I think it’s hard to tell because the tongue is pretty much just hanging out in the middle of your mouth; it’s not touching anywhere that helps let you know what’s going on. Now what you really need is to get an ultrasound and watch yourself say it

[theghostofdenzo]

You pretty much roll your tongue as far back as you can for the ‘r’, then unroll it as quickly as possible into the ‘n’ position, right? The ‘e’ just sort of happens on the way

[MissBerry]

Gosh, I stepped away for three days and got these responses. Thanks for all the tips and advice, everyone! Very useful!

I guess, just like learning any language, there really needs to be some form of mind and body connection ( ) Just like musicians undergo ear training, I must also work on this through practice and avoid transliteration.

Since I am still so early in this Japanese language journey, this young has much to learn, absorb, and understand. But, I am really grateful that everyone here gave constructive feedback and hope that this also helped others facing the same quandary.

I am patiently anticipating that time when I stop overthinking pronunciation and can just flow with it like I did with my native languages. So, when that enlightened (how apropos ) day arrives, let’s party, okay!?! (sake optional- where are my fellow teetotalers at? )

みんなありがとう！

@phyro

if you’ve ever studied Spanish before, it is similar to the short R such as in pero (“but”). (But not the trilled R such as in perro .)

That makes sense. Practice makes perfect.

@feistypotato

ら has a distinct pronunciation similar to R and L, but not quite the same!

@Belthazar

I read the Italian words with a Japanese R-sound, it actually sounded like pretty good Italian.

Guess this should be added to my future languages list?

@alo

For the Japanese ら, try to touch your tongue to a place midway between those points on the roof of your mouth.

@darkness_rising

people are generally terrible at feeling tongue position.

@zyoeru

With “la” your tongue should be behind the ridge. With “da” your tongue should be on the top of your teeth in front of the ridge.

And so, these comments

@prouleau

How To Pronounce The Japanese “R” Sound

marked the beginning…

@BigEm

It helped me to picture the sound in my head as “rla” instead of the romaji “ra” in the beginning.

@theghostofdenzo

A fun exercise to “find” the position is to start saying tapped 'l’s, then progressively move your the point you tap backwards until you need to curl your tongue back. For me it feels like just slightly behind where I pronounce an English ‘d’

of her tongue workout journey!

@ekg

Previously I didn’t think too hard on it, merely recognizing that different people leans harder toward an r-sound, others toward an l-sound.

@d-hermit

Probably Japanese speakers don’t pay attention to it (just like English speakers don’t notice pitch accent patterns).

Hear, hear! Literally…

@BrotGiraffe

but after studying japanese for over a year now, it has become its own sound/movement in my head.

One day!

@darkness_rising

Now what you really need is to get an ultrasound and watch yourself say it

And here I was trying to save up money for a lifetime WK subscription… , dude.

@kuzuma

レロレロレロレロ

Why did my brain suddenly think of Shakira?

[MissBerry]

Hai! Duly noted!

[Losch]

I was wondering the same thing after listening to お魚天国. At 1:03 that ら in からだ definitely sounds like an L (at least in Spanish, my native language).

- YouTube

[MissBerry]

Great! Now we have a full body workout song to go with the tongue one. This shall be our victory dance, once we get the pronunciation down…
”魚、魚（さかな）”

and now shakira’s as well…

@kuzuma

That’s more like レドーロレーロレー、レドーロレーロレー, don’t you think? But the similarity is undeniable.

[UInt2048]

@Belthazar

I read the Italian words with a Japanese R-sound, it actually sounded like pretty good Italian.

For anyone interested, see the IPA for Spanish and Japanese. Italian has a pretty similar situation to Spanish.

Help:IPA/Japanese

Help:IPA/Spanish

[darkness_rising]

@MissBerry

And here I was trying to save up money for a lifetime WK subscription… , dude.

In case you didn’t know there’s a ~33% discount around the end of the year! Goes from ~$300 to ~$200 if I remember correctly and they pro-rate your current subscription.

[alo]

@MissBerry

of her tongue workout journey!

Haha aye. Think of it like singing exercises. You feel kinda stupid belting out “nya nya nya nya nya” at first but they end up helping a lot.

My personal demon is the trilled-r sound like in the Spanish word perro. The レロレロ exercise helps. lol

[Chocobozell]

I’m having a good chuckle and sigh at the same time trying to follow the advice of putting my tongue between the ‘l’ and ‘d’ sounds, and now I know why… literally everyone giving that advice puts their tongues in a different place than I do to make those sounds… As for the ‘r’ sound, my tongue doesn’t touch the roof of my mouth at all, but rather curls on the right and left sides. I wonder if there’s a way to tell a native english speaker’s region of origin based on the way certain letters are formed, even when they sound the same…?

[theghostofdenzo]

@Chocobozell

I wonder if there’s a way to tell a native english speaker’s region of origin based on the way certain letters are formed, even when they sound the same…?

but if they’re formed differently they sound different

and regional differences in pronunciation are called accents

[alo]

@Chocobozell

but rather curls on the right and left sides

That’s one of the two ways to make the “r” sound in English. I think it’s more common in American English and more common among younger people according to this Tom Scott video:

Why Jonathan Ross Can't Pronounce His Rs

@Chocobozell

I wonder if there’s a way to tell a native english speaker’s region of origin based on the way certain letters are formed, even when they sound the same…?

If you watch to the end, the two ways of producing “r” in English sound virtually identical.

[morteASD]

@alo

sound virtually identical.

I feel like they are quite far apart, since the sound is produced in such a different way. But I had a speech defect when I was younger where I couldn’t roll my R’s (which is what we use in my native language) and was using the American R, so I’ve probably had to think about it too much…

[theghostofdenzo]

@alo

That’s one of the two ways to make the “r” sound in English.

There are at least seven if you count outside of London as speaking English…

Pronunciation of English /r/ | R-labialization

[alo]

@morteasd

was using the American R, so I’ve probably had to think about it too much…

That’s probably related to what he was talking about in the video. You wouldn’t know that other people were making the sound differently until you tried to do something like roll your “r” and found out you couldn’t.

I too grew up making the American “r” sound and couldn’t roll my “r” but then my native language has a “ra” sound that’s closer to “la” and then we racked on the English “r” later on.

@theghostofdenzo

There are at least seven if you count outside of London as speaking English

I think r-labialization is distinguished differently since it sounds closer to “w” like Tom mentions in the video.

[Chocobozell]

That’s quite fascinating! It definitely was difficult to learn the rolling r when I took Spanish in high school many years ago. And now that I’m paying closer attention while doing it, my tongue does go to a different position than my usual r sounds. Brilliant!