I took a long break (>2 years) from Japanese and am starting again. Before the break I was roughly N3 level and fairly well-rounded across listening, speaking, reading, grammar, and vocab. In part because of my ADHD, passive attention is difficult; since I’m also motivated primarily by conversation, pure reading and listening practice feel like a slog within a slog. I’ve found that I’m able to pay attention to Italki lessons, grammar study, and SRS systems. The main issue has always been input - especially massive input.
I’ve thought about addressing this issue by having Italki tutors take notes in a Google doc during conversation practice. I could then alternate between 30 minutes of conversation practice on Italki and 30 minutes of reviewing the Google doc (e.g. looking up words and grammar points, considering alternate phrasings, etc). I do extremely well financially so money isn’t an issue.
What are the biggest gaps you could see with such a strategy?
I guess I can’t help but ask… if this is the case, what is holding you back from going to Japan for even a few weeks and learning conversation organically?
Speaking at least for myself, Italki is just the next-best-thing sort of strategy I use for lack of in-person native speakers to converse and improve with. I mean, I’m sure there are boundless reasons why others prefer online tutor services, so I can really only speak for my experience. I know some people have their entire curriculum taught by online tutors.
That being said, I don’t think there is anything wrong with splitting your italki time this way - I would just make sure that the tutor you hire knows up-front that you want more than just a coffee and conversation session. This could necessitate hiring from the teacher category instead of community tutors.
I guess I can’t help but ask… if this is the case, what is holding you back from going to Japan for even a few weeks and learning conversation organically?
It’s a fair point. I could even transfer to Japan and have been considering it for a long time, although I would get paid half as much (~$200k vs ~$400k) in my line of work. I’m also going there for vacation for ~2 weeks pretty soon.
The main advantages of Italki IMO are teacher corrections / feedback and the ability review a Google doc afterwards. I enjoy talking organically with native speakers in-person also, and there are definitely some advantages to that as well. Until I become quite fluent, it’s a lot easier to get the input into my brain if I have a chance to review afterwards.
I would just make sure that the tutor you hire knows up-front that you want more than just a coffee and conversation session
What do you think would be more productive than free talk? Some kind of structured curriculum? Off the top of my head, coming with various topics prepared could lead to more variety and coverage of topics and grammar points.
This is definitely fair (although access to Japanese teachers becomes easier in Japan, but I won’t push that point any further )
I think that working with a Google doc is really not a major issue at all and most tutors will be very happy to oblige. I might suggest that the bigger issue is understanding what you hope to gain from your sessions. If it’s more than just “being comfortable when conversing” then I suggest hiring an Italki teacher who can make proper lesson plans and actually teach you.
For conversing, having prepared topics is a great strategy - I’m wondering what you hope would be recorded in the document? Speaking as someone currently taking in-person classes, when conversation flows, the corrections happen quite naturally. If I use もらう when I should’ve used くれる, my teacher will simply say “Ah, くれる” and I correct myself and the conversation continues unbroken, much like when a child is corrected in English. Are you hoping specific words like those will be recorded? Or are you looking for more of an overall summary of your conversation after the fact, with a focus on jotting down general observations rather than specific terms?
I would say that, before choosing a tutor and then during the first “getting to know you” lesson, explore these questions to help narrow your needs:
What are specific aspects of conversation you want to see recorded in the doc for later viewing no matter what? Like, if every other note was forgotten to be added in the joyous post-conversation haze, what would you absolutely need to still see written down?
What life topics are you interested in building a lexicon for first? Or - what topics do you need to improve on before your trip?
What kind of results are you hoping to achieve; literature fluency, everyday conversation, keigo for business settings, etc.?
I’m just bouncing ideas, I hope I’m not overstepping in any way. I like your ideas and I hope you have a wonderful vacation!
Speaking as someone currently taking in-person classes, when conversation flows, the corrections happen quite naturally. If I use もらう when I should’ve used くれる, my teacher will simply say “Ah, くれる” and I correct myself and the conversation continues unbroken, much like when a child is corrected in English.
For me it depends. If it’s something simple like that, it’s no problem. If it’s new vocabulary or a new grammatical structure, it doesn’t stick as easily. (ADHD also interferes with working memory and the ability to capture complex novel information.) Since I’m forgoing other forms of study (e.g. vocab flashcards) the doc has to do more heavy-lifting.
Typically we’re conversing in Japanese, and the doc is mainly used for the teacher to write corrections, vocabulary, grammar, etc as the lesson goes. I actually prefer that the teacher write down what stood out to them rather than my dictating that they write down specific things. Essentially I can work with a wide variety of teachers, and I think the aggregate of diverse feedback is probably more valuable than if I told them all exactly what kind of feedback to write down. That said, corrections are the bare minimum.
Other option would be to pay yourself a personal tutor in your vicinity. no going to Japan, not taking online classes and not getting your source of income halved.
Most likely something pedagogically structured and personally fed would help with your aforementioned attention issues.
Maybe someone from italki could also be available for that
Sorry, I’ve never used italki, I don’t have anything else of value to add.
Sorry i misunderstood… I thought italki was a language exchange type thing. I’ve just looked at the italki website. I’m amazed how cheap the tutors are. 10 pounds/dollars! Local tutors in the Uk charge about 35 pounds!!
To be honest, I don’t see a huge advantage in hiring an in-person personal tutor vs an Italki teacher. It’s less convenient, less selection, costs 2-3x as much where I live, slightly less natural to integrate with Google docs for review.
I think the real question is whether or not transferring to Japan now would have a huge net benefit to my Japanese over transferring to Japan later. I think the difference would be how much faster could I learn Japanese in Japan vs grinding on Italki from my current level. If it was a big difference, that would be pretty compelling; otherwise, it would be less so.
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