Do you spend time reading books?
What do you have in the vocabulary department to show for the past 2 years?
I see you’re level 6 on wk, but do you use other srs like anki? If you’re consuming Japanese content regularly you should be seeing dozens if not hundreds of new words a day. Are you practicing them explicitly to make sure you understand and retain them or are you just letting the Japanese wash over you and hope you pick it up?
Not novels but I’ve read a few childrens books on Kindle. After seeing everyone’s reply here I think I’ll definitely pick up some graded readers though and put more time dedicated to reading overall!
My vocab comes mostly from Wanikani, Genki and Renshuu. I was lv 7 on here last year but I took a 6 month break from it and reset my level cause I couldn’t remember anything and I wanted to focus more on the sentences that they provide because I’ve been told knowing kanji is useless without knowing the context, which I found is mostly true and helpful when re-learning.
I think my vocab is lacking but I can only srs so much in one day, do you have any tips on incorporating them in other ways? I definitely see new words all the time but idk how to keep them alive in my brain
I second this. I have to tell myself this all the time. Ive been here for bloody ten years and for whatever reason I realize I punish myself for not being more fluent in Japanese than I am my native language.
I think back to conversations and realize I said just as much and pretty much what I would in my first language but for whatever reason I expect MORE of myself in my second language. They might be doing the same thing.
This is my second time through wanikani. I understand most of the programming I watch and listen to. I can have conversations and do. (My speciality where I can have deeper conversations are religion (Japanese) and running)
I sometimes think that we expect more of ourselves in our second languages and that doesn’t make sense to do and isnt helpful.
So, they just need to remind themselves of all the progress theyve made and maybe think “Would I really say it, think it, that differently in my first language?” if teh answer is no… I feel like I would have said something similar they are probably setting an impossible expectation. TO be more fluent in their second language than their mother language.
I think when you get to about 中級 level in japanese that stops being true. Knowing Kanji by itself is incredibly helpful at that level. It makes looking up words so much faster and acquiring new vocabulary much faster too. If you can read the kanji, you know what the reading is and its a snap to look it up. When I read books now, I do often find I have maybe 1 or 2 words a page I dont know but I can look it up and toss it in the study pile VERY quickly.
I would say watch simple programming, reading simple books will have you seeing things you are studying and seeing them in the wild after studying them really makes them stick. You don’t have to be actively studying to be cementing your language knowledge. For example, I was studying recently 収まる and 懸命 both showed up in a show I was watching pretty much the same day. lol. I was like WAIT. I KNOW YOU. OHHHH OHHHHHHHH.
They are both cemented in my head now.
While the JLPT doesn’t test output, especially speaking, it can be a useful test of reading skills, and something I realise is that for an English speaker (or non-Kanji-first-language learner), Japanese is very difficult and requires a multiple number of hours (probably four-fold) compared to closer languages, to get to the same reading level.
Noting that, anything that gets us progressing in reading with exposure to new vocabulary, is (I would say) critical in acquiring the language. And that requires many many hours on the reading journey.
This might be of interest:
https://cotoacademy.com/study-hours-needed-pass-jlpt-comparison-levels/
I’m assuming “kanji” here is supposed to be “vocab”? Regardless I’ll respond to both.
kanji is useless without knowing the context
This is a pretty bullshit statement interpreted at face value, so I’m not sure who told you this. The point of “knowing” kanji (recognizing meaning and possible readings) is to make it easier to learn new words. There isn’t really any context to kanji you need to know and just learning in isolation will rarely impede your ability to use your knowledge to more easily learn vocab words if your knowledge is applicable in the first place.
vocab is useless without knowing the context
Less bullshit, but overblown. Context is much more relevant for vocab, but its mainly a dealbreaker for output. For input, its actually not a huge deal. You have context when you are consuming the language and you can use your adult brain to figure out what they’re trying to say and take note of the context the word was used in. For making input more comprehensible, which should be the primary goal for learning vocab at the start, not knowing context is a disadvantage and not a dealbreaker. Far from useless.
Is the correct way to interpret this statement that you don’t like srs and won’t do more than x amount per day? I mean, my honest take is that if you really wanna get good and do it fast, you just need to pay your srs dues at the start at least. Your other options include just making killer mnemonics when you come across stuff you want to learn, or reconsuming content several times (preferably after confirming comprehension). If you’re already bilingual+ or have knowledge of chinese a lot of this stuff can come more naturally but for monolingual english natives the beginning is going to be pretty rough if you don’t lean into srs and solid mnemonics imo.
If you want it really bad, I think your best bet is just using that motivation to create a more disciplined routine and get to the point where you have more time for srs/make it take less willpower. Its what I did, so I’m obviously biased, but its also what literally every other monolingual who has gotten to my level that i’ve met has done so its probably at least a good idea even if not the best necessarily…Theres a lot of posts, books, and youtube videos on how to build discipline, a routine, and effectively meet goals. Maybe going that route and trying to embrace srs would be a good idea.
I can tell you personally I had a hard time doing my wanikani reviews and fell off the wagon TWICE (quitting for a total of like 450 days i think?) before even hitting level 20. Then I came back and blasted my way from sub n5 to being able to read novels in a day without assistance over the course of about 5 years with 0 breaks. Besides renewed motivation, I really just made japanese a set routine and part of my life. I ended up studying ~3-4 hours a day on average compared to my ~sub 30 when I was struggling. Paradoxically, it was much easier for me to maintain the 3-4 hours a day. Discipline and routine are a weird thing. 3-4 hours a day forced me to make a routine and caused japanese to become a habit, but I’m sure you can also make a routine/habit even if you don’t take it to such extremes.
I’m rambling now. Honestly this isn’t just about Japanese though. Just the skill of waking up and doing something hard every day that takes effort without getting burnt out and maintaining enjoyment is a very valuable ability. And its one I believe everyone can build.
Learning a language takes time and effort. Keep reading and mine.
It’s good if you have a Japanese friend to talk with.
Youtube offers lots of listening resources.
Even for N3 learners a Japanese child should have equal or better Japanese skills than them.
You just need time, relax : )
I’ve long since been N1 level and I work in an elementary school and they still kick my ass in some ways. For reading and general vocab size I’d take em down any day, but I mean they can write a lot better than me and speak more naturally with better pitch and pronunciation. They also almost certainly have better listening for the words they do know.
That’s a great attitude! Learning a language is work. It takes time and effort.
In order to progress you need to do deliberate study. I wouldn’t count watching Japanese videos and other content consumption as studying. It helps if you other hobbies are aligned with Japanese studies but they might not add much especially in the beginning.
I watched a lot of anime in the past and memorized a maybe a hundred words over the years. But 100 words is just a drop in the sea. It won’t make a big difference.
For me the biggest difference was taking private lessons with an online tutor. In the beginning I had a tutor who was fluent in both Japanese and English. I really needed the detailed grammar explanations in English. After about a year or so I switched to a different tutor who only spoke Japanese.
I think one of the most effective exercises for me was to write sentences using new grammar and also writing essays on different topics to I wanted to be able to talk about. That would take time to research a topic, find vocab etc. And then the tutor would help me review and improve the text.
Another thing that helped me a lot was wanikani. I was going fast to finish it in under two years because I hated being so limited by kanji knowledge. WK is not perfect but it was perfect for me because i didn’t have to think about what to study. I have me convenient framework to follow, I just had to stick with it. It took me around 9 days per level on average, so about 3 levels per month. And it amounted to around 1-2 hours of wk daily.
Learning Japanese takes time and money. You can save time by spending more on resources like tutors, books, apps etc.
But in the end it’s possible to reach what you want. I wanted to be able to hold a conversation on various topics in Japanese. It’s been two months since I’m only using Japanese at work. I’m not that good at reading though, but I don’t practice it much. I lack kanji and vocabulary knowledge (i forgot a lot of wk items since getting to lvl 60), but I’m fine with this.
Yeah, it took me 2 years to work out how to learn a language. I learned a lot of Japanese in those two years, but probably less than a half of what I could have learned if I’d started the right way. I’m lucky in that focus and self learning is something necessary for my job so I’m used to it, but you still have to know what you should be focusing on.
The key point for me was realizing that language was a subconscious skill similar to learning to play an instrument. All the technical knowledge in the world is worth less than actually having your fingers on the strings (or whatever) and trying to play something not too far outside of your current ability.
Steve Kaufmann from Lingq says you don’t learn a language - you acquire a language.
It’s an interesting perspective that can influence learning strategies.
I would consider those two words as synonyms in this context, but I suppose the distinction he intends to make is that learning a language involves acquiring procedural memory to a greater extent than acquiring declarative memory.
Please elaborate.
To simplify: For language learners like us who have chosen the Wanikani path, could the learning part could be the initial part when we are memorizing words and doing grammar and having stuff taught to us by teachers and the acquiring part is when we are just reading and listening and watching and sort of absorbing the language without looking up every word or having it explained to us.
If I noted his points correctly, Kaufmann acknowledges that different people learn or choose to learn differently, and no one method is “the correct one”. The approach he favours is to get a lot of vocabulary exposure by reading and to soak it all in, including grammar. He thinks that vocabulary is the mountain to climb. (As I said - if I am summarizing correctly.)
Hence more diffuse learning than focused learning (of the classroom, textbook kind - or only using them as an adjunct).
Hello this is my first reply on here after lurking on the forums for months…!
A lot of what you said resonated and I wanted to make a suggestion that’s helped me in my journey. For context, I’m about three months into my Japanese journey and while this isn’t my first language learning rodeo, previous attempts at learning languages have gone, to put it lightly, not so well in the past. But like you, I primarily know only one language, my native language.
This time around, however, I’ve taken what I’ve learned works for most people and what works for me, and also came across some bumps in the road as it comes to “modern language learning”. Said bumps: there’s so much out there. Especially with learning Japanese. Six years ago when I was learning Russian I had so few choices so it was easy to work with what I had! But now there’s too many in the world of Japanese that analysis paralysis hit pretty hard and still does when I find myself wanting something shiny and new (anyone else have ADHD lololol).
However, to combat wanting to try everything, I made it so Wanikani and Genki were my home bases. Weaving the two together has been immensely helpful in learning vocab (and grammar, of course). I find that I learn words in one that I encounter in the other and vice-versa, giving me that extra review and context boost that helps prevent vocab leakage. Additionally, learning grammar through Genki helps the bonus sentences in Wanikani stick.
I want to add the caveat that I do not do Genki alone. I am working through ToKini Andy’s paid version of the YouTube course (the YouTube is the grammar videos/streams, which as you’ll see below, are just a fraction of what they have to offer). In it I can:
- Hear the vocab and shadow it (practice speaking along with Yuki, a native speaker)
- Watch the grammar video (this is the free video on YouTube and the only free component)
- Read (and listen) along to a selection of graded readers (often 10-15 stories) suited for (and punching above) my current level at that chapter. I try to read through these leisurely and opt for sentence-mining/dictionary-toting for other times. The focus here is getting used to the grammar, not vocab acquisition.
- Watch a bonus grammar video with shadowing practice
- Walk through the chapter textbook exercises (it’s like being in a class - so helpful)
- Watch another video with MORE shadowing practice (deeper breakdown)
- Checklist item to work through the workbook
- Checklist item to work through the “reading and writing” section in the back of the textbook
- Opportunities to submit written and spoken practice for feedback
I do Wanikani every morning and most evenings and I create a weekly lesson plan to tackle the above items. I call these my “non-negotiables” and mark these two sites as my core learning. This helps me stay focused and, while some days I want to do more reading, immersion, etc., I try to prioritize on my core time items to progress and avoid information overload (or falling behind because I get lost in building vocab on some random side quest - which isn’t bad! but priorities first).
Other things I do for fun but exist outside my “core”:
- Listen to Japanese learning podcasts on my morning walk (nihongo con teppei, bite size japanese, easy japanese podcast, kind of whatever suits my fancy). Ultimately I do this to get used to hearing Japanese and sometimes I’m actively listening and other times I’m lazily listening, lol. Regardless, I do this and embrace not knowing every word and not being able to look up words (typing and walking is not my forte). If a word is really bothering me, I write down how I’d sound it out and look it up when I get home.
- Watching shows and sentence mining. I’ve just started doing this and it’s exciting to see all I know! I don’t jot down every word - right now I’m focusing on words I would like to use and sometimes I just focus on reading the subtitles. Since this isn’t my core, I try to do what works for me and allow for it to be a bit of fun.
- Watching shows with Japanese subs and 0 sentence mining. What’s on the tin. I do this and allow myself to feel like a kid again. Think about when you watched shows when you were really small, it’s unlikely you knew every word but context taught you things!
- Working through “easy” (YMMV) manga like Crystal Hunters, Chiikawa, etc. I punch above my level too and again, I embrace the frustration.
- I started diving into Organic Japanese with Cure Dolly during my downtime at work (I WFH) to help sort out grammar points I feel are confusing or I come across in my watching/reading. She’s really unlocked some grammar points for me that were giving me hell.
- Eventually I’d love to practice speaking with a native speaker but one thing at a time…
I hope this helps some! Overall, I recommend building a “core” focus that serves as your daily learning home base. And if you can spend the $10 USD a month I’d say having the ToKini Andy online self-guided course to create structure has been indispensable to my learning journey.
Ah, teenage memories of puking Pimms all over Henley on Thames railway station after the regatta. If you eat the fruit, it looks exactly the same on the way back up.