Doggy Detectives 2! おかわり Week 2 Discussion 🐶

Pages 17 - 24

Story 1: 雨あめふれふれ 事件

Start Date: 18th January
Last Week: Case Part 1
Next Week: Case Part 3

Doggy Detectives 2

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Don’t know if it is too early to ask questions in this thread :sweat_smile: But I was wondering in page 17 in 犬のつれていけばよろこんで、なかにいれてくれるにちがいない。is the ば if here so the sentence would be "If dog would be brought along, they would be happy and would let us in.

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If the thread’s up, you can ask questions in it :grin:

Yep, that’s right - ば-form is a conditional form. It’s very similar to ~たら (I think the latter is used more in speech, ば more in writing). This is the ば-form of 連れて行く.

Unlike some other conditionals, it’s pretty flexible in terms of meaning, so can mean both “if” and “whenever X happens…”. Basically it can sibustitute for any of the various ways “if” is used in English.

Just a note in case you missed it (your translation doesn’t emphasise this element), but ちがいない means “for certain” or “without a doubt”, so I’d lean towards something more like “they’d let us in for sure”.

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Page 17: I’m a little confused with the こっちの勝ちだからだ。Specifically the だからだ bit. Could anyone translate and/or explain? Thanks :slightly_smiling_face:

Edit: Another question! Same page. About the ‘家じゃないところに、かくしてあるかもしれないじゃないですか。’
My attempt at translation is “Would it perhaps be hidden someplace other than [his] house?”
Is this correct? I’m just wondering why there’s an extra じゃない?

Messy breakdown:

家 + じゃない = not house
ところに = (at) place
かくしてある = where (it) is hidden
かもしれない = maybe
じゃない = turns ‘maybe’ into ‘maybe not’? Or I should ignore this?
ですか = turns into question

All those negatives :exploding_head:

Edit 2: I had to search up what ははあ was. Could that be added to the vocabulary list? :slightly_smiling_face:

Edit 3

On the spreadsheet it saysドモンジ instead of ドモンジョ. Sorry, I don’t have my laptop right now and can’t edit the list.

I apologise again for all my questions/annoying comments!

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There’s nothing to apologise for!

Of course! You’re welcome to add it yourself.

Or I can add it :grin: (and correct that name - thanks for the heads-up)

This always really throws beginners off because we read everything so literally, but we do the exact same thing in English: “isn’t it possible the car was blue?” I.e. we use negatives to frame questions, usually softening them (or even statements casually dressed up as questions: “it was cold yesterday, wasn’t it!”). That’s all that’s happening here :slight_smile:

Your translation looks great.

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page18. Im not sure how you know the subject of the first part of the first sentence. Is the translation something like (first half) In the end, to be helpful, whether or not, not understand (second half) but again I decided. . The subject ore is clear for the second half of the sentence. Is the first half also the subject’s thoughts- or something more abstract? I suppose it is linked to why it is the negative form wakaranai.

Yeah, you are nearly there. It is called an indirect question.

Direct question:

Is the shop open today? I don’t know.

Indirect question:

I don’t know whether the shop is open today.

Maybe this is enough of a hint to help you along :slight_smile: If not, let me know and I’ll give you a translation.

It’s だからな, so that should make it less confusing :slight_smile:

Looking up that ‘を to denote location’ grammar really paid off, cause we see it again on page 19!

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I read page 17 through 20. I was able to get through all of it (although i found 17 to be much harder than 18 and 19 for sure).

I am, however, completely stuck on Page 20. Particularly ついてみると、どうだろう。

Here’s my guess:

However, if I go アララ尾山’s house, how will it go?

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Page 19
This is what I think the first sentence says: “Because the cocker spaniel has long fur that repels water, on a rainy day like today (he) can walk outdoors without getting a cold.”
But in this part あるいても、かぜをひかなくていい (te form + も, te form + いい) what grammar point is that?

Page 20
Same as @SolarHusky. I’m confused by that sentence. :slightly_smiling_face:

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This is just confused guess, but I think

あるいても is even if walks as in “Because of the fur, even if the dog walks outside in rainy day like this, they don’t get cold”. For the latter part I am thinking that it may be don’t need to get cold i.e なくてもいい with dropped も, but I am even less sure about that :sweat_smile:

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I think your “confused guess” is right on and makes alot of sense to me. Looking at it that way, I think the whole thing is just one てもいい grammar except いい has a subclause modifying it.

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On page 22, i’m getting thrown by the grammar of アララ尾山 when he says 犬を飼うなら、もっときれいに飼いたまえ。 My understanding of this is: If you own this dog, he’s been kept very clean (by you). I think this is probably correct given the context, but i’m not really understanding the function of the word まえ at the end.

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I think it means “`If you are keeping a dog, please keep it cleaner”. たまえ is used to order somebody to do something..

https://japanesetest4you.com/flashcard/learn-jlpt-n2-grammar-たまえ-tamae/

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To expand on this (for anyone curious), たまえ is the imperative form of たまう. It can use either of two kanji, which differ by usage:

  • 給う has a meaning like する (to do), but the act is performed by a superior person.

  • 賜う has a meaning like あげる (to give), but the act is received from a superior person.

(When attached to the い stem of a verb, I imagine kanji typically doesn’t get used.)

The meaning of 飼いたまえ is similar to 飼ってください or 飼いなさい. I imagine たまえ may have been used specifically because a human is superior to a dog (just a guess). My (limited) understanding is that this use of たまえ is typically only heard in fictional works. (But I’ve never been to Japan, so I cannot say if some people do use it.)

WaniKani fun: The kanji 給 is taught in level 27, but the たま reading isn’t taught. The kanji 賜 is not taught by Wanikani.

Edit: I forgot to mention, this is an archaic word, which is probably why WK doesn’t cover it.

@himmelz: Regarding blurring text, you can type [spoiler]spoiler tags around text[/spoiler] you want to be blurred. Result: spoiler tags around text

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Thanks. I managed to do the blurring.

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Thanks @ChristopherFritz and @himmelz , knowing that grammar point sure does change the meaning, and to the complete opposite effect.

I imagine たまえ may have been used specifically because a human is superior to a dog (just a guess)

If the command is between 尾山 and Spitz, wouldn’t the relationship to the dog not be a factor in the choice of conjugation? (You indicated you were guessing, so I’m just continuing the discussion and hypothesizing as well)

With that said, I think this weeks pages went well. There were alot more sentences than I was expecting, but other than the one sentence on page 20, I was able to understand it all with everyone’s help.

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Since it’s attached to 飼う, I read it as the human doing 飼う as the superior, and the dog that 飼う is being done to as the inferior.

I could be wrong, but that’s my thinking.

Edit: I’ve determined that I was indeed wrong =D

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Hmm I was also thinking in similar way as @himmelz in that I understood that other way round i.e it is command given from superior position. “If you are keeping dog, you should keep it more clean.” with a little looking down on Spitz. Is there good place to read more about that grammar point?

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I might be wrong, but in context I read the きれいに more as “nicely” rather than “cleanly”. If you’re going to keep a dog, then please keep it more nicely/you should look after it better.

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I don’t see ~たまえ in “Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar”, so it looks like it’s time to scour the web.

【N3文法】~たまえ | 毎日のんびり日本語教師 says:

目上から目下へ使う男言葉です。
It’s a word used by males from a superior to an inferior.

https://www.imabi.net/theimperative.htm says:

~たまえ is used by mainly older men and it is often demanding and taunting.

Japanese Verb Auxiliaries says:

Attach ~たまえ ( -tamae ), the command form of the verb たまう ( tamau , to give or bestow) to a verb stem to form a request that this action be done. This can be anything from a prayerful plea to an order that is expected to be followed, and is also fairly outdated. Using たまえ commands with subordinates apparently conveys an affectionate tone.

たまえ 【指示・命令】 接続・用法・例文  JLPT N3 | 日本語文型.com says:

指示や軽い命令を表す。
Expresses an instruction or a light command.

男性用語で、地位が上の人間が下の人間に使う。
A masculine term, used by a higher person to a lower person.

やや形式ばったセリフのような印象をあたえる。
It gives a somewhat formal impression.

With all this said, I officially join the side of everyone else. (Not that I was hesitant to or anything.)

If my original interpretation were correct, the guy would be telling Spitz to order his dog to 飼う. And we know that that’s not the case.

Edit: I did a search through subtitles I have on hand for some anime I own on DVD, and here's how many instances of たまえ came up:
Show Count
Ao Haru Ride 1
Cardcaptor Sakura 1
Flying Witch 1
From Up on Poppy Hill 4
Hidamari Sketch Hoshimittsu 2
Honey and Clover 4
Kinmoza (season 1) 1
Laputa Castle in the Sky 12
Ouran High School Host Club 5
Outbreak Company 5
Porco Rosso 1
Princess Mononoke 4
Sailormoon (90’s) 36
Sailormoon Crystal (season 1) 3
Soul Eater 3
Strawberry Marshmallow 3
Toradora 3
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