Crystal Hunters: A manga designed for people learning Japanese!

[jacobalbano]

@Crystal_Hunters

You’re supposed to be able to understand 98%+ of the words you read

Well, when I started reading I probably only knew about 60-70% of the words I saw I wrote about this in detail elsewhere but suffice it to say I made very rapid progress by skipping literally everything I didn’t understand – most of the time not even looking up words unless I was totally lost, all in pursuit of increasing the chances of encountering grammar or vocabulary that I had recently studied. I’m not going to pretend it’s for everyone, but it worked for me and I was certainly reading well above my level for the first few months. Fortunately mass exposure works by magic so it turned out alright in the end.

@Crystal_Hunters

Yes, it will help them with their grammar if they continue studying, but there are many many situations where students give up because it’s too hard, it’s not fun, or both

Just not sure I can get on board with this one. A friend of mine has been on Duolingo for almost three years (ever since they first added Japanese support) and he’s still functionally illiterate. Why? Duolingo is fun; it’s got that whole gamification thing and my friend is consistently at the top of the daily leaderboard. Duolingo is also easy; the total vocabulary across the whole course is super limited and the quizzes are almost all multiple-choice. Somehow, this friend of mine is still functionally illiterate.

Obviously, it’s a silly comparison. Everyone (hopefully) knows that Duolingo for Japanese is bad. The Japanese-learning community I’m part of constantly has people coming in asking what the difference between りゅう and りゆう is, and nearly every time it’s because Duolingo doesn’t properly teach combination kana…and that’s just one easy example.

The point is that on the gradient of Easy/Fun vs Difficult/Boring, there’s a huge range of possibilities besides “make it as easy as possible”. Max difficulty+max boring? yeah people are probably going to drop out. That doesn’t mean that going all the way to the other end of the spectrum is the best answer.

Quick edit to add something I forgot earlier (regarding “native material by native speakers”):

@Crystal_Hunters

Which we are, not sure what you’re arguing here. You even quoted us mentioning that the Japanese version was written by a native Japanese speaking university teacher two sentences later.

It seems almost disingenuous to say “we have a native Japanese translator on the team” when the output has so evidently been altered in a way that no normal person would speak. It makes me think of books like “Fun with Dick and Jane”, which are full of phrases that, while grammatically valid (“Look”, said Dick “See it go. See it go up”) don’t in any way reflect actual language.

I’m not sure if I feel better or worse about the あれ・これ consolidation now that I know it was a conscious decision. Maybe better, because at least it demonstrates that it wasn’t done out of ignorance – you at least know the difference between the two. But maybe worse, because you willfully made a choice to contradict the information in the guide, which I feel like I personally would be even more confused by (“if あれ means ‘that over there’, then how far away is ‘over there’? is it for things that you aren’t holding directly in your hand?”)

I dunno. It’s very frustrating. I’ve probably spent more time than was prudent on this topic.

[Crystal_Hunters]

You make very good points. Yes, intensive reading is a totally legit way to learn, but also yes it’s not for everyone. There’s lots of hard stuff to read already though, so we thought we’d fill the void on the easier end.

@jacobalbano

The point is that on the gradient of Easy/Fun vs Difficult/Boring, there’s a huge range of possibilities besides “make it as easy as possible”. Max difficulty+max boring? yeah people are probably going to drop out. That doesn’t mean that going all the way to the other end of the spectrum is the best answer.

I totally agree with this too. But to be fair, we’re actively encouraging people to read. Plus, the benefit of doing an epic manga is that it gives us the ability to add words / grammar and get more natural as the story progresses. By the end of the manga (1000+ pages later) we will be in considerably more natural Japanese.

[YukiPhoenix]

@Crystal_Hunters

Are you familiar with the concept of “graded reading”? There’s a whole branch of language teaching research which argues against this point that you’ve just made.

I am. I’ve read dozens of graded readers of varying levels. But I don’t see where any of them were using an “unnatural” form of the language. I’m not sure why “graded reader” is being conflated as equivalent to writing in an unnatural way.

It’s no different than when writing children’s material in English. Writing something in a simplified manner doesn’t mean you have to use unnatural phrasing to do so.

[_Marcus]

@jacobalbano

Someone who reads this as their first manga is going to be utterly bewildered when they pick up a real one.

Well, I started learning Japanese with a bit of Japanesepod101 (which I hated) and then, 2 and half years ago, with volume 1 of Yotsuba with the bokclub here on WK, the first manga and the first Japanese I ever read. To say I was utterly bewildered would be an understatement. But I kept going, with everyone’s support, and am now reading Japanese daily.

Would having read Crystal Hunters before I read Yotsuba have made the situation worse or better? Undoubtedly it would have made things better. It would have provided an excellent starting point from which to then go on and read native material. Having read Crystal Hunters first would have made my experience of Yotsuba so much easier.

@jacobalbano

It makes me think of books like “Fun with Dick and Jane”, which are full of phrases that, while grammatically valid (“Look”, said Dick “See it go. See it go up”) don’t in any way reflect actual language.

I don’t think this is a fair comparison, I don’t think Crystal Hunters is as stilted and unnatural as that. But, for what it’s worth, I learnt to read English as a boy in the late 1960s and early 70s from Ladybird books with exactly that kind of language. I loved them, and they were successful in making me literate. But, like I say, I think the comparison is unfair. For someone starting out, Crystal Hunters is a very good read.

[Belthazar]

@marcusp

But, for what it’s worth, I learnt to read English as a boy in the late 1960s and early 70s from Ladybird books with exactly that kind of language.

Because that’s how everyone spoke in England in the sixties. “Right sport, old chum. What spiffing fun.”

[jacobalbano]

@marcusp

To say I was utterly bewildered would be an understatement.

I think that’s inevitable to a certain extent. I simply don’t believe that starting with material like this would have helped you. What’s better, starting from absolute zero, or starting effectively “in debt” because you’ve “learned” some information that won’t actually help you, and may in fact give you preconceived notions that are actually incorrect?

@marcusp

I don’t think Crystal Hunters is as stilted and unnatural as that.

I mean…if you look at the English version you can see it’s pretty much exactly the same as one of those books. It honestly looks to me like that’s what the authors were going for.

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

Exhibit D

I’m honestly not sure how you can miss it.

@marcusp

But, for what it’s worth, I learnt to read English as a boy in the late 1960s and early 70s from Ladybird books with exactly that kind of language

Man, more power to you but I would have died of boredom 十人十色 I suppose.

[_Marcus]

I never looked at the English version (didn’t know there was one), and there I can see what you mean. But, as a tool for learning Japanese, I still think Crystal Hunters looks brilliant! But, yep, like you say (and thanks for the phrase!) 十人十色!

[seanblue]

@jacobalbano

十人十色 I suppose

Is it weird that I just used Yomichan to look up that word because I couldn’t remember the equivalent English phrase? (I was like, “strokes something”)

[jacobalbano]

Basically all I’m trying to get across is that to the practiced eye, both the Japanese and English versions are equally awkward. People with less experience are much less likely to notice this, and therefore much more likely to think it’s good material (and recommend it to other beginners, who in turn will…you get the idea).

[Crystal_Hunters]

@jacobalbano

What’s better, starting from absolute zero, or starting effectively “in debt” because you’ve “learned” some information that won’t actually help you, and may in fact give you preconceived notions that are actually incorrect?

First of all, nothing is “incorrect”. That’s just wrong.
Also:

• Hiragana and Katakana practice
• 87 words and 5 conjugations.
• Learning to read in Japanese
• Sense of accomplishment and motivation boost

We think this is a fair trade for a little unnaturalness. You say “debt”, we say “leap forward”.

[MegaZeroX]

But looking at the english here this seems like the level of material I would give to people just learning English. Unnaturally simple grammar, with awkward conversations to avoid having to use new words. The purpose of reading things anything beofore N3 grammar isn’t to learn Japanese grammar or how Japanese grammar works, but to get practice reading hiragana, and understanding what is being conveyed, getting practice of your very small vocabulary and reinforcing very basic grammar.

[jacobalbano]

@Crystal_Hunters

First of all, nothing is “incorrect”. That’s just wrong.

The whole これ vs あれ matter still stands . That’s one thing I’m not going to budge on.

But aside from that, I’m talking about stuff like using 私 for every character (and rarely dropping pronouns), or using あなた instead of character names. Using request form instead of command form in contexts where it wouldn’t be appropriate. Complete absence of polite speech. I’m not saying “incorrect” like “it teaches that you can put だ after an い-adjective”, I’m saying “people are going to pick up their second manga and wonder why nearly everything is different from what they learned”.

@Crystal_Hunters

We think this is a fair trade for a little unnaturalness.

I simply disagree. You can get all of that and more by reading a real manga. Breaking out of “textbook Japanese” is difficult enough for a lot of people (myself included). I don’t see the point of trying to ease the transition by reading something that just…uses more unnatural textbook-style Japanese.

@MegaZeroX

But looking at the english here this seems like the level of material I would give to people just learning English.

Speaking as an English teacher, or…?

[Crystal_Hunters]

@jacobalbano

But aside from that, I’m talking about stuff like using 私 for every character (and rarely dropping pronouns), or using あなた instead of character names. Using request form instead of command form in contexts where it wouldn’t be appropriate. Complete absence of polite speech.

Again, we did this intentionally. It’s cool if it’s not for you, but it’s not wrong. And you hold on to that あれ, protect it with your life!

@jacobalbano

I simply disagree. You can get all of that and more by reading a real manga.

Yup, you’re right. But you’ve admitted yourself that this way of studying is not for everyone. We made this for those people.

[jacobalbano]

@Crystal_Hunters

But you’ve admitted yourself that this way of studying is not for everyone

I said no such thing. I said that my method of skipping what I didn’t understand is not for everyone. Some people learn better by looking up every word they see; that’s not for me, but I respect it. Please don’t twist my words.

@Crystal_Hunters

And you hold on to that あれ, protect it with your life!

With this I can only assume that you’re arguing in bad faith. Last attempt:

Your guide says that あれ means “that over there” (a better explanation would be “something that is not within locality for either the speaker or the listener”, but it’s good enough). You said in this very thread that you chose to use あれ instead of これ to avoid confusing the reader when the same object is indicated twice. Unless you provide this information to the reader (at which point why even bother making the change?) the meaning in the manga directly contradicts the explanation in the guide.

Whatever. Not like anything I say is going to make a difference.

[rever4217]

@Crystal_Hunters

Sorry to disappoint. We do have a unicorn girl as one of our main characters in the manga though, so yeah… lol.

You can put likes unicorns on your wk bio instead!

[Crystal_Hunters]

@jacobalbano

Well, when I started reading I probably only knew about 60-70% of the words I saw I wrote about this in detail elsewhere but suffice it to say I made very rapid progress by skipping literally everything I didn’t understand – most of the time not even looking up words unless I was totally lost, all in pursuit of increasing the chances of encountering grammar or vocabulary that I had recently studied. I’m not going to pretend it’s for everyone

Ah, your phrasing is a bit ambiguous here. I didn’t know if “I’m not going to pretend it’s for everyone” was pointing towards “skipping literally everything I didn’t understand” or “when I started reading I probably only knew about 60-70% of the words I saw”. I had no intention of twisting your words, but you have to admit it can be read both ways.

[Crystal_Hunters]

@rever4217

You can put likes unicorns on your wk bio instead!

Maybe we will

[seanblue]

@jacobalbano

I said that my method of skipping what I didn’t understand is not for everyone. Some people learn better by looking up every word they see

This is what I did early on and still do to an extent. Not knowing (almost) everything just bugs me. But it can also be slow and painful, so I recognize that others might prefer to just understand what they can and move on.

Personally, I would never advocate reading dumbed down language just for the sake of saying you completed something. But I’ve also never been interested in even graded readers, so I obviously wouldn’t have been the target audience for this. I preferred to diligently study from a textbook and then start reading manga and books despite how hard it was at first.

[_Marcus]

@Crystal_Hunters

• Hiragana and Katakana practice
• 87 words and 5 conjugations.
• Learning to read in Japanese
• Sense of accomplishment and motivation boost

• kanji practice, or at least practice in recognizing and using furigana (an important step for beginners), which is a good introduction to later native material
• fun story

[anon95214108]

Thank you for clearing up the main criticism, that this is: “wrong japanese”. Forgive me if I’m being naive guys but I trust the japanese university professor that translated this manga.

I’d like to say that I like what you guys are doing. I know that people are used to top notch manga quality and give some criticism with those expectations in mind, but this manga is professionally made, and it’s of good quality. I know it’s not easy to create something like this, and I’m glad you guys made the effort to make this for the community. I think this is great for complete beginners.
I wish you guys luck with the release of the full manga! and that you can get your investment back! (it does look like you guys made some financial effort with this)