Coddiwomple-ing through WaniKani - A study log

[MegaZeroX]

How you should be using Bunpro is this:

1. Going through the lessons in the bunpro order. It should give a basic meaning, and there should be links to various paces online taking about the grammar point, along with book references. The DoJG the best ones IMO. But they will pretty freely use grammar from N5, along with a little from N4. But I still recommend using those references from. N4 on. Sometimes Bunpro misses references to it when they exist. One of these days I’m going to make a forum post listing then I think. Make sure to add the lessons for review by clicking on the button that does that.

2. You will encounter words you don’t know in reviews and examole sentences, but that will be true for the rest of your life (you encounter words you don’t know in your native language as well). Since you are always given a translation, you should be able to figure it out which word maps to what. If you can’t, then I recommend looking up the word on jisho.org. If the kanji doesn’t have furigana for whatever reason, click on the kanji to toggle it on. Similarly, you can click on a Kanji to hide furigana for Kanji you already know. This should apply for all appearances of that kanji on the site.

Basically, in other words, the flow is to learn each item at the depth you want, add it to reviews, do an immediate review, then more reviews whenever it appears in the in the SRS queue to make sure you remember the point.

[MegaZeroX]

Derp, I just realized that you were taking about Kamesame. You should be doing WaniKani mode. Otherwise yeah it is isn’t going to be very helpful since you will just be given words with Kanji you don’t know. Make sure you only add WK items you have Gurued.

[Coddiwomple]

Hey, I’ll take the bonus Bunpro advice thank you so much for your help by the way, I do appreciate having a conversation about study rather than shouting into the internet.

How are your studies going?

Something I learned today:
Trying to learn vocabulary in this way has been like being hit in the face by a cluex4 I have lost count of the number of times I have listened to people talk about paying attention to words encountered ‘in the wild’ and the importance of learning vocabulary in context. Every time I quietly thought ‘that sounds hard, surely there is a program for this.’

Meanwhile, I have picked up almost all my vocabulary as a side process to other study, and less than a minute after trying to learn words without context or specific purpose I melt into a puddle of confusion

[MegaZeroX]

My studies are going okay I guess, but I have lots of research stuff to do this week and have had a somewhat stressful past couple of weeks so I’m going on “bare minimum” mode this week (which is to say, just WK and keeping up with my Japanese class). Next week I plan on pushing through a lot more grammar.

I think with vocabulary, there are three components. There is:

1. Recognizing a vocab word (with a simple defintion)
2. Recalling a vocab word (when given the English, giving the vocab word)
3. Understanding the full usage and nuances of a vocab word

Wanikani gets you 1, while KameSame can you get 2 for the WK vocab. Torii would get you both 1 and 2. People say you need to see a word “in the wild” to get 3, but this isn’t necessarily true. They usually mean the various uses, which can be obtained by looking at a dictionary. You can learn the “nuances” by asking on something like Japanese Stack Exchange, or finding others who have asked. Generally the “nuances” part is just something for when you are curious about two words that are defined the same. And typically, it takes A LOT of time with Japanese (many years interacting with others, and consuming media basically exclusively in Japanese) to get you to intuitively know word nuances. Even in their native language, people often mess up nuances (which is part of what changes word meaning).

Obviously, speaking/consuming media is an important part of learning, but it isn’t strictly necessary for learning full meaning/nuances.

[Coddiwomple]

Good morning study log!
Today I slept through my morning review session. I should not have watched so much tv last night.
My view on vocabulary is evolving a lot today. I am very keen to start reading a book and learning vocabulary that way.
[*] WK
[*] Anki
[*] Add some of my own vocabulary to an Anki deck
Bunpro
[*] Look up the grammar terms from yesterday’s lesson in the dictionary.

[Coddiwomple]

Kudos for maintaining your routine! May I ask what level of grammar you are at?

I set up Torii yesterday but ran out of time to try it. Hopefully today I will have time. _{At some point I am planing to give Duolingo a go again too just for vocabulary on the side/reviewing what I learned last term in class in a novel way.}

[MegaZeroX]

My view on vocabulary is evolving a lot today. I am very keen to start reading a book and learning vocabulary that way.

I personally advise against focusing particularly this, since the research I’ve looked at suggests that focusing on reading is the best way to gain reading skills, but not much else. Similarly, focusing on vocab is the best way to learn vocab, focusing on grammar is the best way to learn grammar, focusing on listening is the best way to learn listening, and speaking is the best to learn speaking. Conversation is also the best way to get a “native level” processing of the language. Early on in particular, its really important to build a foundation to use when you are really ready to focus on it. That being said, this isn’t saying to not read, but don’t think that it will become a primary learning source until you are a more advanced learner.

On a related note, I probably spend too much time reading language education research and not enough time studying, but that is neither here nor there.

@Coddiwomple

May I ask what level of grammar you are at?

I would say I’m around N4ish. I say “ish” since I tend to do a depth first approach to learning grammar, in that when I see a topic, I basically look at the DoJG topic, its related topics, and those related topics, and so on. So I can tell you a lot about nuances about early topics, and related (and much more advanced) topics, but there are some N4 things I’ve seen but am not yet comfortable with. This leads to me being able to correct much more advanced learners on some things, but people around N4 being able to show me topics I haven’t yet seen.

@Coddiwomple

At some point I am planing to give Duolingo a go again too

I’ve always heard to avoid Duolingo when it comes to Japanese, which has a ton of problems, but all of that is hearsay.

[ChristopherFritz]

@MegaZeroX

the research I’ve looked at suggests that focusing on reading is the best way to gain reading skills, but not much else. Similarly, focusing on vocab is the best way to learn vocab, focusing on grammar is the best way to learn grammar

To add a few thoughts on this (which will both agree and disagree with MegaZeroX’s reply):

Vocabulary

Reading is a great way to encounter a lot of new vocabulary. However, encountering vocabulary in reading is useless for learning unless you are specifically doing something to learn the word (or if you have a really good memory).

A few years ago, I read through a manga, making an Anki SRS card for not just every vocabulary word in the whole volume, but each different inflection/conjugation I encountered. I spent probably over a year doing SRS reviews for that vocabulary before stopping. A couple of years later, I remember maybe a few of the new words I’ve picked up, but I’ve probably forgotten most of them. Again, this is after over a year of SRS reviews.

What was the biggest issue?

Kanji.

At the time, I didn’t know more than a decent handful of kanji, and all these new words I was learning were just blobs of kanji. (I’d already been learning vocabulary through iKnow’s core decks, and I get the same there; a lot of words I forget as they’re really just kanji blobs.)

There are words I used to get wrong on SRS reviews so many times that finally I remembered them enough for them to stop showing up for a few months, then when they come up again I’d keep getting them wrong. But once I’ve learned the kanji via WaniKani, when those words come up again, I know them perfectly.

You can still find value in learning words even without the kanji. You may learn ねこ, いく, たべる, がっこう without knowing the kanji yet. (Beyond Japanese high school class, a lot of the early words I learned by hearing them when watching anime in Japanese.)

If you want to dip your toes into learning vocabulary outside of WaniKani (which isn’t intended to be a vocabulary learning tool), I recommend going with the graded readers, which (starting at the lowest level graded reader) you could begin today.

Grammar

Vocabulary won’t get you anywhere without grammar. I speak from experience there.

When it comes to reading, expect to encounter a lot of grammar you don’t know. If it’s in a book club, read the discussion threads, and if your question isn’t answered there, post the page number and sentence asking for help with the grammar. (Even if the thread is over a year old, it’s okay!)

Some people do well learning grammar in isolation. I’m not one of those people, so I need to encounter it in manga, be confused by what’s being said, look up the grammar, say “Oh, that’s what is being said,” and then forget the grammar until I see it again. After a few times, it begins to stick.

Reading

If you want to learn vocabulary in reading, and you’re making an Anki deck, I highly recommend the “sentence +1” method.

For this method, you take a short sentence where you know everything in the sentence, every vocabulary word, every piece of grammar, except for one thing. That one thing that you want to learn can be a new vocabulary word you don’t know, or an unknown kanji for a word you do know, or a usage of grammar, or an inflection/conjugation of a word. This sentence has all things you know, plus one thing you don’t know.

When the sentence comes up for review, you should be able to read and understand the whole sentence, and quickly. If not, you fail the review, and the back of the card should inform you on the meaning of the item you don’t yet know, that one item you want to add to your memory.

Reading native material allows you to encounter many sentences, but most of them will be too long to be suitable, and (early on) will contain too many things that you don’t know yet to be suitable. If a card has even two things you don’t know, it’s a bad card (as far as this method is concerned).

I think it may be too soon for you to get much out of reading, but there’s no harm in giving it a try. A lot of book and manga online stores have an easily accessible preview, some even for a whole chapter. The worst that can happen is you find yourself completely lost and you feel discouraged. But remember, this is normal for someone at where I assume your depth of Japanese vocabulary and grammar currently rests.

If you buy a Japanese book or manga, and you find you can’t read it yet, you can simply try again later, even if it takes a while. Some of the Japanese manga I’m reading this year, I bought ten to 20 years ago. I failed to progress my Japanese knowledge much at all for a long long long time, but I finally pushed myself to the point that my spent weekly chore money back in the 90’s no longer feels like it went to waste =D

[Coddiwomple]

@MegaZeroX

the research I’ve looked at suggests that focusing on reading is the best way to gain reading skills, but not much else

Interesting. Well, I shall adjust my expectations then Reading is still it’s own reward at least

@MegaZeroX

On a related note, I probably spend too much time reading language education research and not enough time studying, but that is neither here nor there.

But that is half the fun! I have bookmarked the entire Language Learning subreddit, although I have not had time to read even a third of the Wiki. Or maybe less. There are some very interesting polyglot vloggers too.
Do you think you will learn languages other than Japanese in the future?

@MegaZeroX

I’ve always heard to avoid Duolingo when it comes to Japanese, which has a ton of problems, but all of that is hearsay.

Duolingo is all about what you use it for. I would not recommend it as even a secondary tool to learn language, but as a ‘fun-ducational’ game to review things you already know? I think it might do well in that role.

[Coddiwomple]

@ChristopherFritz

To add a few thoughts on this (which will both agree and disagree with MegaZeroX’s reply):

I am so keen to read your input!

@ChristopherFritz

I spent probably over a year doing SRS reviews for that vocabulary before stopping. A couple of years later, I remember maybe a few of the new words I’ve picked up, but I’ve probably forgotten most of them.

@ChristopherFritz

all these new words I was learning were just blobs of kanji.

Ah that must suck! All that effort! I appreciate the chance to learn from this though kanji… do still make my eyes glaze over in many situations. Graded readers are FANTASTIC. Not that I have read any yet, but they are such an amazing tool <3 Do you have a personal favourite?

@ChristopherFritz

Even if the thread is over a year old, it’s okay!

Okay this is very reassuring, no one wants to be a necromancer I also just realised it means I don’t need to wait for a book club to start once I am ready to start reading That probably should have been obvious huh.

@ChristopherFritz

If you want to learn vocabulary in reading, and you’re making an Anki deck, I highly recommend the “sentence +1” method.

I have not actually heard of this before, but it is fantastic! Thank you!
I am hoping to start reading in July. My goal is to have ~N5 grammar, and my WK level could be level 8, depending on what pace I settle on (I’ll hit lvl 4 in just a few hours! ). So no, reading is not likely to be a productive use of my study time this month But. Soon.

@ChristopherFritz

Some of the Japanese manga I’m reading this year, I bought ten to 20 years ago. I failed to progress my Japanese knowledge much at all for a long long long time, but I finally pushed myself to the point that my spent weekly chore money back in the 90’s no longer feels like it went to waste =D

An excellent investment then! That is fantastic I have found a huge stash (like, hundreds… ish?) of second hand Japanese novels in a local store. About 250 pages each. When I am able to at least read the title and blurb unassisted I will take a day to pick some that interest me. My only concern is the difficulty of looking up unknown kanji from a physical page. With eBooks a definition is just a click away. How do you find reading physical books as compared to digital?

[ChristopherFritz]

@Coddiwomple

Do you have a personal favourite?

I haven’t actually used any graded readers, although I’ve browsed some free ones on a site linked to by someone on the forums here. (If you go to the Reading section, to the Master Link, there should be a link to some free graded readers there, I believe.)

By the time I learned about the existence of graded readers, I was at a high enough level of vocabulary and grammar that graded readers wouldn’t do much for me. The reason why is because of a concept in language learning, which I’m sure has a specific name, though I don’t know what it would be. When you’re new at learning a language, just being able to read and understand something can be exciting. Thus, a book so simple that it would be boring in your native language could feel exciting to read in a new language.

For graded readers, if I tried reading one now, it would be boring for me. But if I tried reading one 15 years ago (back during my age of not progressing my Japanese), and I had the experience of “Hey, I can actually read and understand this if I just look up one or two things”, it would have been much more enjoyable.

@Coddiwomple

I also just realised it means I don’t need to wait for a book club to start once I am ready to start reading

You’ll get the most activity in responses in a a currently-running thread with a lot of participants, but there’s always people writing set for notification on the older threads. I’ve seen questions come up on the Yotsuba threads a year later, and they get answered sometimes within hours.

@Coddiwomple

My goal is to have ~N5 grammar, and my WK level could be level 8, depending on what pace I settle on

Having at least experience of looking up all N5 grammar will probably be the barest minimum to no feel completely lost looking native material. By the time you’ve completed N4 grammar, you’ll find a lot of native material looks a lot less mysterious (even if that’s only about ~20% of what you see in a simple book or manga), and of course there will still be all that vocabulary you don’t know yet. The less you know, the more room for growth!

@Coddiwomple

How do you find reading physical books as compared to digital?

Back when I was first working my way through trying to read something Japanese from a physical book (or magazine), where it did not have furigana, I have this thick kanji lookup book I’ve have with me. I’d look at a kanji in what I was trying to read, and then look it up by radical in the kanji book. It took forever, and was really a massive waste of my time back then.

Fast-forward to today, I’m currently reading only items with furigana readings over the kanji, so I don’t need to do kanji look-ups. But I do still need to do vocabulary look-ups. For me personally, it’s a bother to juggle between a physical book where I have to keep my place, and a device where I’m looking up the words. Being able to do reading and look-ups across one or two electronic devices (where I don’t have to worry about losing which page I’m on) is much faster and less bother for me.

Others prefer physical for various reasons, such as being able to write notes on the pages, or they may simply prefer the feel of paper over an electronic device, etc.

As for kanji look-ups reading a physical book lacking furigana readings, I’d imagine you’d want to be level 60 on WaniKani before even attempting it. (But I’m only level 23, so I don’t speak from experience.) I have physical copies of Japanese novelizations of Disney’s first two Aladdin movies, and I’m looking forward to the day I can read the first (which has furigana), but I’m holding off for now as I learn more vocabulary. The second book doesn’t have any furigana, so I’m curious when I’ll start to find myself able to read that one. So much to look forward to!

[Coddiwomple]

@ChristopherFritz

When you’re new at learning a language, just being able to read and understand something can be exciting.

This is true, the novelty and sense of accomplishment has a lot of impact.

@ChristopherFritz

It took forever, and was really a massive waste of my time back then.

Ahhhh that really does sound like such a pain! This morning I read an article on how to look up a kanji in a dictionary. It seems like something to learn just in case one day you really need it.
I then tested the google translate camera, and it did seem to accurately identify the kanji in the book I bought. I couldn’t judge the translation quality, but I am really glad that if/when I do read this book I will be able to paste the kanji into a digital dictionary search! An eBook, or one with furigana, is likely still easier to use though.

Thank you for your response, it was very interesting to read

[Coddiwomple]

5th June
Last night I reached level four! Yay! …While on the bus to my friend’s place to play boardgames It was not the most convenient time to study, although I did work through the level three vocabulary and the first half of the level four radicals. Seeing those 73 lessons immediately appear was rather abrupt.
I did work through the level three vocabulary, and the first half of the level four radicals last night, and did my reviews on the train home. (Late at night, while tired, and making many errors). This morning I woke up at 6:30am to do my reviews and new lessons - I probably should have let myself sleep and do the lessons later when I was more focused! However I forgot to turn off my alarm last night.

[*] Finish Kanji lessons tonight
[*] Marugoto study with classmate

• [*] Go through a graded reader together

[*] Bunpro reviews
Today’s Bunpro lesson
Yesterday’s Bunpro lesson
[*] Cover up the romaji in the text book

Reflections:
Talking to two of my Mandarin speaking friends last night, I was a little frustrated when I could not accurately draw many of the kanji I have learned. While production of kanji is not a planned focus of mine, doing some more writing and calligraphy would increase attentiveness. Being unable to remember details of the characters will make it much harder to distinguish between similar kanji. Or dissimilar kanji that share a radical that takes my focus. Such as the lid on 六 and 立. Simple characters, clearly different, but if all I look at is the lid on top, then all kanji that trait will be confused.

[MegaZeroX]

Yeah I’m slowly working on how to write the kanji to both help distinguish the similar looking Kanji and so when I want to show off to family and friends I can.

[Coddiwomple]

Today is not a productive day.
Last night I was utterly addicted to reading. This is has known consequences. Such as moping about the house the next morning with no energy and a headache. Do better next time!
Yesterday was also not that productive, but not to any fault of my own. This is acceptable.

Reflections:
One set of three bunpro lessons a day is less simple than I thought, partly because I take the additional reading seriously. Unless I have semi-frequent grammar focused days, it will take longer to get to N5 than my original goal.
Some days I am keen to do ALL THE LESSONS, some days that is beyond me. For now, I will trust that doing reviews 2 or 3 times a day is sufficient, with lessons added as I feel like them, either in the morning or mid afternoon.
Reading is fun, but @ChristopherFritz seems correct, reading builds reading skills first, vocabulary… third maybe. It will help only a little.
The most basic of grammar gets the most confusing of explanations, and I am still sulking because I am genuinely intimidated when I expect something to be much simpler than I find it to be. Psychology sucks. Will persevere. And remain optimistic, because attitude matters.
Thank you for listening Study Log, this has been helpful.

[MegaZeroX]

Feel free to ask for grammar explanations when needed! Sometimes the sites bunpro links to don’t have very good explanations. In that case, I would be happy to give my own!

[ChristopherFritz]

@Coddiwomple

The most basic of grammar gets the most confusing of explanations, and I am still sulking because I am genuinely intimidated when I expect something to be much simpler than I find it to be.

When this occurs, do you feel you understand the underlying grammar of the example sentences aside from the grammar being explained?

[Coddiwomple]

@MegaZeroX

Feel free to ask for grammar explanations when needed! Sometimes the sites bunpro links to don’t have very good explanations. In that case, I would be happy to give my own!

@ChristopherFritz

When this occurs, do you feel you understand the underlying grammar of the example sentences aside from the grammar being explained?

@MegaZeroX, @ChristopherFritz, thank you very very much <3
Good question about the grammar, I am not quite sure. I will try and pay attention to my studies and work that out.

[Coddiwomple]

What I learned today (and yesterday)

Blue-Green use in languages! - Thank you Wikipedia
Languages don’t originate with commonly used distinctions between 11+ colours. First the distinguish between bright and dark, then red, followed by green and yellow, eventually blue, and then other colours one by one.
Japanese had only one term, Ao for the blue green spectrum. Each shade within that spectrum was seen as a shade of Ao (just as maroon and crimson are both shades of red). In the Heian period midori was in use as one such shade of ao. After WWII educational materials began to use midori as it’s own category of colour, green.
Because of this history, a number of things an english speaker would call green are still referred to as a shade of ao. These items include a number of vegetables and vegetation. It also includes green apples and traffic lights.
There are of course other words for specific shades of green and blue that I do not know yet. グリーン is also used sometimes.

When listing the date in Japanese, the order is Year-Month-Day. (Also the days of the week have cool names.)

[ChristopherFritz]

@Coddiwomple

In the Heian period midori was in use as one such shade of ao. After WWII educational materials began to use midori as it’s own category of colour, green.

This was used in the Japanese manga series Detective Conan. In one case, a elderly witness says the culprit was wearing blue clothes. One of the three suspects is wearing blue, but it turns out the witness was referring to the person in the green clothes.

On the topic of colors, if you haven’t done so yet, next is to learn that the color brown doesn’t exist