Can we have options to throw vocabs away?

[Vulkandrache]

@Leebo

Maybe that’s not what they meant.

Its not. And those arent the words i want to skip.
I do know that まずい and ますい are not the same.
But i cannot hear the difference. Unless those pronunciations are purposly exagerated they sound the same to me. While i do not have a good direct example:

Why Shakespeare Could Never Have Been French

Even with the words graphicaly highlighted on screen i can barely hear what and where this “emphasis” is supposed to be.
Im also completely tonedeaf if thats relevant.

@Brand_S

I don’t know what the solution would look like

A start would be to stop usind trans/intrans which are english grammar and use self-move/other-move instead. If you do that the words actualy fit.

The first word i had problems with was Agaru/Ageru.
After getting both wrong multiple times, boucing them between App and Guru
and then Sageru/sagaru joining in i thought that there is no way Japanse is such a messed up Language
that you are supposed to just memorize this crap, we are not talking about English here.
And you are not. Aru-ending verbs, wether they are part of a pair of not are always the self-move variation.
So Agaru has to be “to rise” and Sagaru “to fall”.

@Logograph

The level system is the best part of WK the heck

What it mainly does for me is bounce the number of daily reviews between a handfull and 100+
depending on were i am in a level.
It got better once i started raising my apprentice count past 200.
Now i just need to not let it get too high.

@Brand_S

If you want to get to a point where you can read words and particle phrases and then picture them in your mind’s eye as you do with your first language

I appreciate you text and that sentence in particular is a nice way of putting it.
But i can alleviate some of your worries. English is not my first Language.
While im not some Linguistics master i do have some relevant experience from already having learned a second Language in the past.

@sornvru

You’re stating your opinion as fact and leave no room for discussion, so the only response anyone can make to this is that if you really do find learning new words this burdensome, then maybe language learning isn’t for you.

Im stating whats fact for me as fact for me.

Something like ひろげる suddenly turning up in new lessons from 20 levels ago when ive long since burned all other words using/the Wide-Kanji itself it not a new word.
And it actualy looks almost tryhard to just have 10 vocab that all follow the same “to X something” pattern.

Heck WaniKani / Vocabulary / 検査する
which i just did the Lesson for, is arguably not a new word.
Not after already learning “Examine” itself and a few dozen other X+suru.

These words are nice if you need more training with specific Kanji but their value beyond that falls of fast.

[anewreturner]

@Vulkandrache

the same “to X something” pattern.

I hate this for a different reason. I don’t think of the verbs that way natively. To me, the answer is wrong. For example, “To think about,” in my mind is simply “to think.” I understand that it’s an intentional blacklisting of “to believe,” and yet, it’s wrong. Same thing with “To spread something,” that’s not how English works. We use other particles such as, “I spread it.” Therefor, to spread is correct. I would rather it were the other way around, “To be spread” is more clearly intransitive than “to spread something” is transitive, as “to spread something” is an unnatural thought pattern in English, when we always think of the root word in the infinitive tense. Basically, this sucks. What makes it worse is the real answer is literally blacklisted so your choice to add it as a synonym is disrespected.

Personally, I find this to be a slap in the face. I doubt I need to explain exactly why, but it’s disrespectful.

[Belthazar]

@anewreturner

that’s not how English works

Aye, but the problem is, that is how Japanese works. Japanese has different verbs for the transitive and intransitive forms, but English almost always uses the same verb for both (there are notable exceptions - i.e. “raise” versus “rise” and “lay” versus “lie” - but they’re comparatively uncommon). Unfortunately, in order to hammer home the difference in the Japanese learner’s mind, and not just have “to verb” for both verb forms, some other way of phrasing it is required, hence the slightly wordy “to verb something”.

To use your example, “I spread the mayonnaise on the bread” is transitive, while “the spilled mayonnaise spread across the floor” is intransitive, but in both cases the verb “spread” is the same. If both the cards on WaniKani used “to spread” as the English form, you might never realise the difference, hence “to spread something” for the transitive form.

[anewreturner]

Yes, I absolutely understand you.
Why is it being decided for me, that I will be unable to recognize the difference?
So much so that I can’t add a synonym, “Just in case I am absolutely …?”
Yet, if I really wanted to cheat myself… I could add some user scripts.
What’s the point? Only to disrespect me.

[sergiop]

@anewreturner

What makes it worse is the real answer is literally blacklisted so your choice to add it as a synonym is disrespected.

Not an ideal solution but I am adding “to spread s”, “to roll s”, etc… as synonyms…

[sporadic]

@Belthazar

@anewreturner

that’s not how English works

Aye, but the problem is, that is how Japanese works. Japanese has different verbs for the transitive and intransitive forms, but English almost always uses the same verb for both (there are notable exceptions - i.e. “raise” versus “rise” and “lay” versus “lie” - but they’re comparatively uncommon). Unfortunately, in order to hammer home the difference in the Japanese learner’s mind, and not just have “to verb” for both verb forms, some other way of phrasing it is required, hence the slightly wordy “to verb something”.

And a kanji learning app is hammering home this particular grammar point why exactly? There are lots of ways Japanese differs from English. But for some reason, this grammar point which doesn’t even involve the kanji is being drilled in WK. I don’t get it.

Given that it’s more than likely to create leeches (I know I’ve had a few, just from the ones that were already here) for those who have trouble with this, it gets in the way of what people come to WK for. And they’ve specifically made it so you can’t say “No, I don’t really care about this right now. I’m trying to learn kanji.” Seems… unfair and uncalled for?

As for the way it’s expressed, I tend to agree with @anewreturner, the “to X something” phrase is awkward. I agree that if WK wants to add these, it does need some way to distinguish them, but this way is just… not good. I have mixed feelings about the passive “to be X”, because there’s an implicit “by Y” in there in English which I don’t think quite makes sense for Japanese either.

To be fair, I am not one of those who particularly cares about this particular addition except for the fact that it seems poorly thought out and not particularly beneficial to the purpose of WK. I am more… perplexed by it than anything.

[Leebo]

Just another example of how there will always be complaints in every direction. For years I’ve heard complaints that all the transitive verbs should be standardized with the “something” format to distinguish them from intransitive verbs. It’s no surprise that it gets changed and now we have complaints against that. And that it’s a poorly thought out and disrespectful change at that. I’m guessing the original complainers didn’t feel that way.

Also having flashbacks to when the forums moved to Discourse and people were saying they would leave forever because of it. Wonder how many followed through. The old forums were awful BTW.

[hasturman]

@Mystic_Chameleon

sacrifice fly’

Wait is that a baseball term? Im American and I had no idea what this meant. For the lonest time ive been picturing a fly and someone sadly saying over it “Good bye my friend, but this must be done!”

Its probably good to know though. Japanese people are obessed with baseball in general and although ive never had anyone say a Sacrifical fly to me. Ive heard people say double play on occassion.

[Leebo]

To be fair that one only has applications within the rules of baseball, not idiomatic usage elsewhere.

At least I’ve never heard anyone try to use it outside of an actual baseball play.

[sornvru]

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say, but it just sounds like you don’t like WaniKani.

@Vulkandrache

These words are nice if you need more training with specific Kanji but their value beyond that falls of fast.

But…that’s the point of WK.

[anewreturner]

@Leebo

For years I’ve heard complaints that all the transitive verbs should be standardized with the “something”

@Leebo

and disrespectful change at that.

Oh excuse me, I must have missed the threads begging to add a user synonym blacklist feature.

[Leebo]

It wasn’t created with that purpose in mind, but this thread is regularly used to request blacklist additions from the staff.

Your worst typos WaniKani has accepted

I mean really. What the heck is this. (For anyone under my level it should be ‘dangerous’ [IMG_4072]

Transitive / intransitive overlap is one category that comes up.

[trunklayer]

@Vulkandrache

Aru-ending verbs, wether they are part of a pair of not are always the self-move variation.

That’s very interesting. So, there are some patterns there, after all? Because I remember how when I started, I initially got the impression that all the godan verbs are intransitive / self-move and all the ichidan verbs are transitive / other-move ( because of 上がる and 上げる、下がる and 下げる). But then I encountered verbs like 焼ける and 焼く、 which are the other way around… At that point I started to believe that there is no pattern there and I’ll just have to memorize it for every single verb… But if there really are some patterns to this, it would be a huge help! So, all the verbs ending with ある are always intransitive / self-move? That’s very useful, thank you! Could you please tell me where can I read more about it? Are there any other patterns?
I have a suspicion that all the verbs ending with れる are intransitive / self-move, but I don’t know for sure.

[Epona]

@anewreturner

What’s the point? Only to disrespect me.

You believe that the people at WK are doing this to disrespect you?

[alo]

@trunklayer

So, there are some patterns there, after all

Sort of. There are enough exceptions though that you can’t always rely on it.

@trunklayer

So, all the verbs ending with ある are always intransitive / self-move

This is a really good rule of thumb. However, with the exceptions it’s flipped. The good news is that you can just memorize one of the exception pairs and you know the other.

[trunklayer]

Heh, there are always exceptions…
Still, having these rules of thumb does help

[MeepleKun]

@trunklayer

That’s very useful, thank you! Could you please tell me where can I read more about it? Are there any other patterns?

Here you go: This should help.

[trunklayer]

Huge thanks! This is very interesting and useful!

[Burnannator]

Nawwwww, It’s too tempting to do so for me at least lolo.

[sarzorwyn]

The issue of baseball terms is just how little it teaches me about the kanji because I have to spend more effort thinking about baseball instead of Japanese.

I ended up adding “join kill” for 併殺 because I stopped caring about the meaning.