Beware of Matt vs Japan

Just curious, but do you find fault in your past self’s pronunciation outside of pitch accent? Or did you primarily/only find issues with your pitch accent?

I’m mostly wondering because I think I have a relatively good pronunciation outside of pitch accent, so I’m curious if I should expect a similar wake up call at some point. :sweat_smile:

I think it’s a legitimate example. If you pronounced both words heiban and very quickly, I imagine they could sound very similar despite technically びよういん having one more mora than びょういん. If anything, I feel like the pitch dropping after the よ in びよういん encourages the separation of pronouncing び and よ rather than blending them into びょ by speaking too quickly. (Though I will say that this could all just be due to me having more trouble saying びょ as one mora compared to most of these digraphs.)

And back to the main topic… I was thinking yesterday that the “super secret I’m not gonna tell you” tactic screams scam to me because if it was a legitimate product that they had confidence in, the first lesson would be available for free. Not free trial money back guarantee nonsense, but actually free. Like, why do people subscribe to Dogen’s patreon? Because he provides enough pitch accent content on YouTube for free that everyone can make a judgement for themselves as to whether they think it’ll help them.

I dont really think this thread needs to continue (at least in the way it is now), noone here will probably change their opinion, but in hopes of at least changing ones person opinion on this, i would like to add some timestaps, so even very busy people who can argue here for hours, but cant watch 20 minute video, can get the information.

The video that was sent to few “chosen ones”
https://www.projectuproot.jp/the-infection
7:50-8:41
If you cant hear pitch accent, you are at huge disadvantage, like a tripod that has a leg missing
9:30-10:34
If you cant understand pitch accent, you are left in the dark, trying to piece up together whats going on
11:48-11:58
In order to be able to learn through listening, you need that pitch accent
13:11-13:38
Wasting ton of time on Japanese because you cant learn anything from listening
14:21-15:27
Comparing not knowing pitch accent to starting a marathon with broken ankle, wasting hundreds and thousands of hours if you havnet learned pitch accent at the beginning

So not only is he saying that you cant properly communicate with people, he is saying that you cant even listen to it properly, because you cant always hear whats said and that learning through listening is actually completely impossible.
The only segment that talked about sounding more native (which i assume we all agree are true) are 16:08-16:47, the rest is all about how it will hinder your learning as a whole.

While it is fine to have such opinions and there are lots of things that are partially true, calling it “infection” in current world situation, making shady claims about saving thousands of hours, making it seem like its very prestigius club you can be part of, while not really explaining full terms (how much does it cost and what exactly are you getting), is very fishy. Together with proofs of Ken Cannon scamming people in the past, this really isnt something anyone should be considering. On reddit there even is that leaked discord call with Matt and some other people where he mentioned that there are a lot of gullible rich people (whales) that he would love to profit from - no mention about wanting to help people with Japanese. If you really have money to spare and believe it is important, try finding tutors instead and ask for help with it, that seems to be more reliable way how to achieve this.

I think some of the points he’s making in those sections are fine, but just in the first two parts you mentioned he emphasizes “if you’re the only one who can’t hear pitch accent”, which sounds like a scare tactic to me.

Also, what’s with the comments about learners not being able to hear vowels and consonants? If someone is having that problem, that is so much of a bigger issue compared to not being able to hear pitch accent, and yet he’s combining the two as if they are equivalent.

Regarding the statement that you need pitch accent to learn through listening and that you’re at a disadvantage if you don’t know pitch accent, I think this is a misleading statement. I agree that if you literally can’t hear pitch accent at all you’re at a disadvantage. But you can be fine at identifying pitch accent (consciously and subconsciously) even if you haven’t memorized the pitch accent for thousands of words. Personally, I can usually identify the pitch accent for words I hear and I also know many patterns for how pitch accent changes after conjugation. My problem is that I haven’t memorized the pitch accents for most words, meaning I also don’t know which pitch accent conjugation pattern to follow. But I don’t think there’s a “super special secret” to addressing that. I would just need to prioritize memorizing pitch accent for words and practice reproducing the sounds within sentences.

He said “you can’t be reading a book while walking realistically”. Well I showed him! I’ve been reading Japanese books while walking for the past two years! And I only hurt myself twice!

Regarding the broken ankle analogy, it’s a little overstated, but I don’t think it’s wrong. I think if you had two Japanese learners who you knew would never give up on learning the language, the one who learns good pronunciation and pitch accent early on will probably be at an advantage in the long run. Or more broadly, the person who has a more balanced learning routine (e.g. not just learning kanji for a year while ignoring grammar) will be at an advantage in the long run. The problem is, this ignores the human factor. You can’t guarantee that neither of those two learners will quit. There is such a thing as too much information, and I worry that making beginners focus on pitch accent too much would cause more people to quit learning the language. It’s better to come back to pitch accent later and be less efficient than to give up at the beginning.

He said “Most people, no matter how much they immerse they never pick up on pitch accent”. That just sounds like complete nonsense to me. If I was able to pick up on some pitch accent patterns from watching anime, I’m sure the average person immersing in listening or learning Japanese while living in Japan will be able to pick it up. Unless by “pick up on pitch accent” he means “learn it incredibly well”, in which case, sure most people probably can’t do that without trying. But he makes it sound more like “can’t identify pitch accent and maybe don’t even know it exists”, which is just a silly claim to make.

He mentions having to work harder to identify the word you’re hearing by not knowing pitch accent (which is probably true), but then says it could happen multiple times a minute. That sounds ridiculous. If you know a lot of words (even without knowing the pitch accent), context should fill in the gaps most of the time. You’re not often going to have a sentence in isolation like あめがすき (雨 or 飴) without any context.

I don’t think you really have to consciously memorize patterns. If you just consume enough Japanese, using the wrong pitch will just “feel” wrong. I feel like I can tell how a word or sentence uses pitch 90% of the time just by intuition. You will naturally absorb it even without conscious effort. Of course knowing some of those patterns will help with rarer words you don’t hear often.

Just like in English, I’ve just learned through listening a ton where the stress, rhythm and intonation is. I guess it’s good to be made aware of pitch, if a learner doesn’t notice of it’s existence, though.

When I was starting out I was told by someone Japanese was mostly flat (by which they probably meant not stressed) but I noticed pretty early on “it doesn’t seem that flat, does it?” and since then it just has been my tactic to mimic the way I hear it including the ups and downs. (I did not know that this is called pitch accent until much later) And it feels like that’s probably the most important step? Like, be aware it’s a thing and then try to mimic what you hear (regardless of whether you can identify a pattern or not). Sure, learning more about it can make that easier, but I also find it ridiculous to tell people that it’s impossible to pick up if you aren’t explicitly taught about it…

I agree for the most part. Many patterns are indeed very obvious and will be learned naturally. This is similar to how you come to know whether a verb is ichidan or godan simply based on what “feels right”.

Again, for me the problem is mainly memorizing the words themselves. For example, does a given verb’s pitch drop after the second to last mora or is it heiban? It mostly feels random to me, but it completely changes how the word is said in many conjugations. It is still possible to sound out what “feels right”, but it’s time consuming. (For example, recently I was trying to figure out if くれる was heiban or if the pitch dropped after れ. All I had to do was ask a question using くれる at the end of a sentence and see whether dropping after れ and rising again to form a question sounded right or if staying high the whole time sounded right. I’ve listened to enough Japanese that I immediately knew that staying high the whole time was right once I tried both.)

I do think pitch accent is important, but Dogen’s course is all you need. If you want to go further than that, you can always buy books on it. It is very disappointing to see Matt go this shady route, but greed is a very corrupting influence.

Exactly. All you need is Dogen. If you don’t want to pay, then you don’t even need to study pitch accent.

You can just read about it for free on a few Google searches so that you’re aware of it. Eventually, you start to sound close to how Japanese people talk.

This is how I learned English. I didn’t have to care about how each word was stressed. By watching videos and talking to people, I eventually started imitating the same sounds. The same applies to Japanese. Granted, it is harder but you can absolutely learn Japanese without ever studying pitch accent.

Okay, after reading all of this, I don’t think anyone has pointed out that people with accents in English are still nailing the majority of word’s stress accents. If you interact with enough non native speakers, you can hear people range from “very slight accent” to “completely unintelligible,” though the latter is someone you rarely interact with since it is mostly early language learners, since more advance ones will at least pick up the basic ones.

Pitch accent doesn’t need to be studied exclusively to at least get to the equivalent accent level people are talking about in this thread. However, it does need to be focused on if one wishes to to decrease or get rid of their accent.

The first video of Matt’s I ever saw was a video where he was talking about how to learn kanji and was hating on WaniKani lol. I remember as I watched that video I thought up genuine counter points to every single criticism he made of WaniKani. But then as I watched more of his videos I grew to like him and thought maybe he matured or humbled a bit since then. Apparently not lol.

Using correct pitch accent tones your face muscles and makes you prettier. That’s why the Japanese do it.

There are a couple of people here setting off my own scam radar by seeming to be using this Matt “controversy” to sell Dogen. Just saying.

Yes, and the latter are the ones who don’t care because they think it doesn’t matter.

Damn. I have mentioned Dogen a few times Lol

Well, it’s only because he seems like a genuine dude and his videos are high quality. That’s all!

Since we’re talking a lot about pitch accent I feel it is appropriate to mention Dogen since his course is cheap and he has credibility.

Same, seems like a pretty solid dude to me, and I watched one of his sample phonetics videos and it was pretty good. Just saying, if I didn’t know, I’d now be getting vague negative vibes just by having his name (unwillingly) associated with this mess.

I actually rarely make an effort to talk to those people. If years go by and their English is still extremely broken, that to me means they are not making efforts to improve.

It’s just my opinion. I know a lot goes on such as busy lives, learning a language is harder for some people, the older we get the harder it is (though I’ve always been skeptic about this), etc.

I just lose any desire to talk to people when their language never improves.

@Kinozato, I think you need to take a bit of a break here. You’ve made your point, you think Matt & Ken are scammers, and that’s fine. You’ve presented your evidence, it’s damming, and people can read it and make their own judgement calls.

At this point, the posts here have devolved into no more than “Fuck Matt!”, “He doesn’t care about you”, “He’s just a money-grabbing evil person”, “He’s a cult leader” type comments, and that doesn’t seem constructive nor productive.

IMO, this thread has passed out of PSA territory into bullying. Matt has not personally come to your house and kicked your dog. He has a scammy business, and he sent y’all an email. Please measure your response accordingly.

Similarly, I am not sending emails to Matt nor spamming his videos with bullying comments.

The only part I admit I crossed the line is by saying F Matt. But I don’t have to recant in my statements that he is a scammer and he doesn’t care about people.

You want to defend scammers? That’s fine. You do what you want.

I don’t. Scammers are the cancer of society. You may think it is not a big deal but a scam is a scam. If you don’t agree with my opinions I am not going to get upset or anything. But don’t tag me and tell me I need a break. Lol who are you to tell me that? This is a public forum.

That would be culling ninjitsu. [/shirokuma]