Worth writing kanji?

[pragmata]

You are a true internet hero.

[NLeseul]

@jaearess

His argument is redefining “know” to include being able to write, which is just a rhetorical trick. Everyone is really arguing over definitions. He’s making up his own definition, which is absurd on its face. As I pointed out elsewhere, if you accept his definition, anyone physical unable to write a character (due to a disability, etc.) literally cannot “know” a kanji. Clearly that is ridiculous.

Well, as long as we’re arguing over definitions, “able to physically write a character with a marky thing” is not precisely the same thing as “able to visualize the shape of a character without reference, and to materially demonstrate the accuracy of said visualization.”

[jaearess]

@NLeseul

Well, as long as we’re arguing over definitions, “able to physically write a character with a marky thing” is not precisely the same thing as “able to visualize the shape of a character without reference, and to materially demonstrate the accuracy of said visualization.”

You’re steelmanning his argument again, far beyond the most generous possible reading of what he said, one of example of which is:

@Sutho81

There is no denying the cold hard fact that if you cannot reproduce the Kanji in writing by putting pen or pencil to paper then you simply do not know the Kanji.

[pragmata]

He wrote a lot, so it is easy to forget about these details.

[jalwood1]

I originally bought this book to learn kanji before I discovered wanikani and it was very useful in the beginning. I must admit one major drawback is the use of romaji everywhere but I do intend to return to the book when I decide to invest more time into writing. Some of the alternative handwritten kanji are very different so I suspect it will be very useful.

[Belthazar]

@jaearess

I think that’s steelmanning his argument to an absurd degree.

“Steelmanning” is a term I’ve never heard before, though I can tell the meaning from the context. I guess if strawmanning exists, steelmanning must also, but it’s a curious thought.

@jaearess

One of the great unanswerable questions of our time.

Poe’s Law.

[Sutho81]

Cant believe this is still going on. The amount of silly memes from all the children here could easily have been used by putting pen to paper and memorising them. Picking a Kanji from multiple choice entries is not really knowing it. I guess the ones that do that don’t really want to learn anything at all and do not want to strive to achieve more above their potential. I have no time for people who want to look at things and say no its too hard, I would rather interact with people who aspire to be better and try to achieve more and step up to a higher level. People who don’t try to learn more or strive for better things do not know what it is like to win and lose which is why they feel so upset when the cold hard truth gives them a wake up call.

[pragmata]

I think you need a hug.

[Belthazar]

@Sutho81

The amount of silly memes from all the children here could easily have been used by putting pen to paper and memorising them.

Oh, now we’re supposed to spend every waking hour hand-writing kanji? Can’t we have some time off to come here and poke fun at people?

[pragmata]

@Belthazar

spend every waking hour hand-writing kanji

[Held]

@pragmata

I think you need a hug.

I was trying, but WaniKani has some silly ideas about what you can put in a post, so I’m dedicating my mandatory sentence to you

@Sutho81 I hope this will make you feel better:

[jaearess]

@Belthazar

“Steelmanning” is a term I’ve never heard before, though I can tell the meaning from the context. I guess if strawmanning exists, steelmanning must also, but it’s a curious thought.

It is the opposite of strawmanning, but where you try to figure out the best possible form of an argument so you can test your opinion against that. It’s a good thing to do, rather than just dismissing an opinion because the person spouting it doesn’t make a strong case themselves.

But I think you can take it too far and give too much of the benefit of the doubt to a plainly weak argument.

@Sutho81 has clearly just descended into trolling at this point, whether his original assertion was sincere or not. Coming back regularly just to say you don’t have time for this pointless argument you’re actually keeping going is an extremely banal troll maneuver.

[pragmata]

Everyone should load up his last post with likes and flood the thread with replies full of hugs.

[kondoisami]

[Naphthalene]

Like @Belthazar, this thread had some positive influence on me. I did google steelmaning, ended up on the “less wrong” wiki and learned a lot. I also got to reflect on what it means to know kanji.

All in all, good thread, would post again.

In other news, I wonder about this part from the last post:

@Sutho81

Picking a Kanji from multiple choice entries is not really knowing it.

Where did that come from? I don’t remember any mention of multiple choice before in this thread. Could it be that they misunderstood what we are talking about?

[jaearess]

@Naphthalene

Where did that come from?

From here, I imagine:

@NLeseul

I do think it’s worth pointing out here that the whole premise of WK’s methodology is that you don’t “really know” kanji if you can pick them out of a multiple-choice quiz, and you need to actually be able to type their readings or meanings in manually before you can claim to know them.

Which just makes it a pointless thing to say, since no one is arguing otherwise.

[ThorinB13]

How did I miss this thread??? I just spent my entire WK studying time reading it from the start. I may draw some lines on some paper to help me remember it though. Maybe I’ll learn the kanji for “enlightened” and I’ll certainly have a good story for it somewhere…

[pragmata]

Is he really going to stop posting?

[jneapan]

I hope not, this was so much fun.

[chezmax]

Woo, this thread was a hoot.

Actual response:
I use Kanji Study App and made a bit of an SRS out of its writing checker. I spend maybe 5 or 10 minutes a day on it; I’ve worked my way to being able to write (on screen, anyway) nearly all the kanji it categorizes as N5 and N4.

I found that it really helps me remember the make up of kanji, in a way that wanikani never did. After the initial mnemonic scaffolding wore off, I’d remember the general shape and feed of a kanji, but there was no way I could describe how it looked or reproduce it myself, and I was prone to confuse it with similar kanji.

Now that I’ve added just a little bit of writing, yeah, I remember the structure much better. And it’s kind of fun and relaxing in its own way.

I don’t regularly write on paper, and that’s even more difficult than finger drawing on my phone’s screen. But I can do it, though I sometimes have to jog my memory with a dictionary app.