I’ll use this moment to point out again that many of the translation of the sentences don’t use ANY of the words given as meanings
5 Likes
Yeah, I very rarely even look at the example sentences because they are just too difficult for my level. I started another program alongside WK and have a better idea of sentence structure now. But it’s still not enough. I would really have benefited from having that very first example sentence just be as simple AF so I could see the kanji I just learned in action. And honestly, just keeping that first example as a basic, simple sentence probably would have saved them some time from trying to come up with something funny or clever.
4 Likes
They usually have 3 sentences, so I think a good solution would be increasing complexity as you go down from beginner → intermediate → advanced level. Of course not all words can be used in very simple sentences but “close enough” would already be a massive improvement from what is there
3 Likes
I totally agree. It would be much better to look for kanji you know with the new word rather than think I do not know any of this apart from the new word. Good to know that I am not alone being perplexed by this
2 Likes
One last thing I would like to add to the sample sentence topic.
Living in Japan for a while I can confidently say that there is nothing like a linear learning process in a sense that people seems to imagine here. Starting from simple going to more complex and finally beeing able to master the language.
Sorry to say that the feeling you probably have with the sample sentences now as a beginner will stay with you for the rest of your life if you plan to live in Japan.
Whenever you have a change in environment like starting a job, going to university, beeing hospitalised, raising kids, school, kindergarten, using Line, using Keigo whatever it always feels overwhelmingly complex to navigate through these situations because all of them use their own vocabulary and socializing rules. And for some reason Japanese people really like to give simple things very obscure names and nobody bothers to explain the meaning to a foreigner because nobody can imagine that you don’t know what it is.
If you feel overwhelmed by the sample sentences it would be good to reconsider if Japanese really is something you want to have in your life. It just gets worse the deeper you go.
8 Likes
I find absurdity sometimes leaves an imprint on my mind. The emotional response increases my chances or memorized it. I like to use art and draw absurd things to help me remember too:
This is ‘‘pick up’’. The hero (Link from Zelda) can ‘pick up’ stuff with the right ‘suit’. It’s a bracelet in the game but it can work!
12 Likes
with all respect, it just sounds a little bit condescending and * elitistic*
The goal of any sentence is to provide short comprehensible input to reinforce unknown word recognition.
If the overwhelming majority just straight up ignore most of the context sentences it just shows they are not comprehensible for most people. For some reason, I never saw any complaints about context sentences on torii, kamesame, or kitsun. But on wanikani you can see complaints about that quite often= the problem definetely exist.
11 Likes
This is like if my english teacher told me I should give up english because I didn’t understand an updog joke while I was learning about ‘to be’
19 Likes
Sorry to sound elitistic, that was not my intention.
The problem with Japanese is, that it is a very nuanced language. It is not possible to show the nuance of a word if the sentence is too simple.
There always has to be a certain relationship of people who are talking or a certain environment in which vocabulary is used. In my impression the sample sentences are doing well in giving that context. If you can give me a “bad” sample sentence and a “good” sample sentence I can try to explain it better.
It is really hard to find teaching material on Japanese that is trying to give you a natural context that’s why I am very grateful that wanikani is doing this in their sentences. Even if it is a bit difficult to understand them it really makes sense.
4 Likes
I think the joke aspect of the sentences is not really important. But the sentences give an important context. Most Japanese textbooks are completely artificial. What I wanted to say is that if you learn Japanese you will always encounter situations that makes you feel the helpless feeling of your English teacher making a joke in the first class. Unfortunately you have to deal with this from now on. I personally hate the feeling but I try to rather become interested in the difficult part because this is how you can develop. And honestly, if I could turn back time I would not learn Japanese again.
1 Like
I’d suggest checking out the sentences again at a later date, I’m honestly finding them more useful than going through the vocab on WK itself…the context is extremely helpful. I largely ignored them when reviewed here but as I go through them separately on another SRS platform (now with better grammar and vocab/kanji foundation), I think they are great. The reasons being they are complete sentences (not out of context like a lot example sentences), funny which makes them memorable (important), colloquial which is very useful and the translations are solid. Plus they have a lot of outside vocab that can be learned. If the sentences were more simplified, I don’t think it would nearly be as effective. Most importantly, I’m not bored by this sentence grinding which I can’t say for other example sentence study material I’ve encountered.
I think with any learning material, you want to be reading above your level to grow. But if pushed too far, students just get discouraged and demotivated and I think that is what is happening here (plus want something accessible while learning the vocab item…not later). But WK never claimed to be a beginner’s platform, in fact the later 10 levels are a vertical climb IMO.
4 Likes
The battle of artificial vs natural speech is a big one you face in almost every language I agree, I agree, but it’s a challenge that should be faced by intermediate/advanced students, as you have learned the fundamentals and can now pull from that to break the rules and point out nuances in everyday speech.
Wanikani cannot really assume that level from someone, and while you can go back to the phrases when you have more knowledge, it doesn’t erase the fact that they aren’t useful in the most crucial part of the learning: when you just got it.
You can have complex sentences to challenge higher graded students, and I encourage it, but I think this feature should be acessible for those who are at a beginner stage, by making it clean and direct for them.
9 Likes
This is a perfect example of what I list as point 4 in my big comment. I’m so glad someone is able to provide an example of what I meant when I say that the context sentences don’t even use the meaning being taught.
Dude. Don’t even get me started on the mnemonics. I hate them. Firstly, I don’t even like mnemonics, they just don’t work for me, but secondly, they just teach bad pronunciation. And that irritates me.
Say for example that “to-mah-toe” is the only correct pronunciation for Tomato, and that “toe-may-toe” is wrong (I know they’re both correct, but let’s pretend they’re not lol). WK teaches “toe-may-toe” as the mnemonic. But it doesn’t matter if you remember “toe-may-toe” cause it’s wrong. I don’t even care that the mnemonics teach with an American accent (there was a post a little while ago about Fozzy Bear and “wakka wakka wakka”) but they just teach completely the wrong pronunciation most of the time.
3 Likes
English isn’t my first language, so I avoided complaining about mnemonic pronounciation as I thought it was an accent thing. Are they really just modified pronounciations to fit the word?
I ended up using portuguese for most of the mnemonics anyways, as our sounds are close to japanese already and I have more ease in pronounciating it lol
I think you’re referring to the phonetic mnemonics. Yes, indeed, quite a bit of them are incorrect and misleading, for instance:
- https://www.wanikani.com/vocabulary/運ぶ (mnemonic “hawk”, points to はこ. not exactly how it’s pronounced and a reference to 箱 would’ve been easier)
- https://www.wanikani.com/vocabulary/訴える (mnemonic “you take”. “you” is not pronounced う)
- https://www.wanikani.com/vocabulary/狭める (mnemonic “sabotage”, points to せば. not how that word’s pronounced at all)
- every mnemonic “cock” which points to かく (the sound is こく at best)
Not even. Many of them are just wrong.
I avoid phonetic mnemonics like fire, because I already got burned by them enough times.
5 Likes
They’re supposed to be mnemonic, and the more ridiculous the premise in the mnemonic sentence, the better it’s supposed to stick in your short-term memory, so stands a better chance at being absorbed into long-term memory, through SRS theory.
My exp with these sentences, is their effectiveness depends loads on how you react towards them. If you like cringey logic and find it entertaining a la @ctmf and @seanblue… power to you, more likely their purpose as a mnemonic will work. But for those of us under a bit of pressure to succeed with a different, more serious attitude towards language learning (or just the spectrum of learning styles in general… including already being multilingual)… it won’t, and by mid levels I stopped even looking at them, as I’d developed my own method for remembering kanji by that point and leaned harder on that, towards 60.
I feel part of the problem, is simple fatigue – when everything is goofy so you’ll remember it, nothing becomes goofy, as nothing stands out anymore. Does anyone seriously think when you’ve heard a silly premise 900 times… whatever the association is, will stick…? That’s just not logical or consistent with human nature.
The solution imo would not be easy, as at least 1/3 of the mnems would need swapped out… but it would be to back off the silly premise into something equally entertaining, but not to-the-rug-goofy, such as trivia from Japanese history, far more extensively than present. This prevents fatigue from developing and re-introduces a bit of novelty into the sentences again. By Lvl 30 you’ll have developed a bit of your own style based on what works for you, so feel this mod would benefit those still wishing to use them in addition to their own methods 
3 Likes
YES. LET THIS MAN BE HEARD.
On the “ultimate guide to learning japanese” page they have, they talk about the curse of knowledge. Which is really ironic given how non begginer friendly the example sentences are.
I’m not the brightest, but I know a tiny little bit of grammar that I think is adequate to my WK level (considering I literally haven’t started learning grammar). I can imagine many example sentences that use the vocab perfectly and noobs like me could read. But it’s always some god damn N1 shit. I just read the translation to get the actual contextual meaning of the words and that’s that.
How about every 10 levels the grammar requirements for the sentence examples go up and there’s a warning prompt about it? So I can learn what will be used.
2 Likes
I’ll be honest: this is the first time I’ve encountered any actual praise for the sentences. So, point taken: it’s possible to like them. Still, I’m convinced they’re a pedagogical error, and the site would be hugely improved by targeted, appropriate sentences. And true, they don’t have to get rid of the others; maybe just move them down to a place below the examples that most people will end up using.
I agree that “at best mediocre” is a touch too harsh. So I’ve edited it to read: “at best okay.”
4 Likes
I recognize that this non-linear pattern is a fact of language learning; I’ve tackled a few languages along the way. BUT: basic syntactical tools are just not that helpful unless they’re rational, and somewhat linear. You need at least some sense of order, before you attack the disorder. Grammar books in every language I’ve studied follow a distinct pattern. While you’re pursuing the linear path, you continuously step outside of it — through conversation, reading, etc. But you still need a path.
As for reconsidering Japanese — that’s silly. LIFE gets worse the deeper you go. I’m just not sure you want to go cave diving before you learn the basic principles of scuba.
2 Likes
You’re absolutely right: this is the brilliant principle behind the good side of Wanikani. As I say, outrageousness has been an essential component of mnemonic technique ever since the ancients. You find it Latin handbooks: advice to choose the most bizarre images you can. It’s appropriate with vocabulary; it’s appropriate when trying to remember a long speech; but it’s not appropriate when you’re dealing with example sentences — that’s a different side of language acquisition. There you want transparency.
1 Like