On'yomi vs kun'yomi… again [rant]

So, “Table Of Contents” (https://www.wanikani.com/vocabulary/目次) has this lovely explanation

Which would be fine, if it weren’t because “Eye” ( https://www.wanikani.com/kanji/目 ) teaches ku’yomi:

And the list of vocabulary shows that もく appears only twice… (TOC being one of the instances) :confused:

Also, slightly related – shouldn’t “here” be a link? Which in the grand scheme of things would be actually brilliand that could solve a lot of issues of mixing on’yomi/ku’yomi teaching – you could simply point to the relevant bit that tought the rading you are relying upon in particular vocabulary (if it doesn’t match reading tought with kanji)

I quite agree – this is clearly an oversight that needs to be addressed.
Tagging @Mods to inform the support team about this situation.

imo, some of this should not be a forum post but should instead be a bug feedback! i’m sure the WK staff use the forums and check for bugs here, but if I were running a business that had a clearly-defined channel for offering bug reports, I’m sure I would wish that people used it.

as for the rest, I suppose my attitude about on’yomi and kun’yomi (it’s actually my responsibility to learn all readings of a kanji, and complaining about the way WK teaches doesn’t change that fact) is pretty well-known at this point, so I’ll just leave it at that.

When you say もくonly shows up twice, I assume you just mean in the vocab up to your level, right? I’ve definitely seen that reading in other places e.g., 目標.

I agree with @trunklayer that this seems to be an oversight. I’ve run into similar minor issues in the past where the explanation references a reading I haven’t learned yet or a word I haven’t learned yet–probably an accident from when WK decided to change the order things are taught in or changed the reading for the kanji and forgot to update all the cards referencing it.

Our logic here is that you learned the on’yomi もく reading in level 8 with 科目. Since 目次 is taught at level 9, that reading doesn’t need to be retaught.

That said, I’ll still pass your feedback along to the content team :slight_smile:

As for your other question - no, there isn’t meant to be a link in the sentence you highlighted. “Here” is referring to the current topic or situation, which is 目次 in this case.

Well, there is a chat bubble on each item but it looks more like a support thingy and not “report issue”.

Yes, I mostly meant my learning so far: out of 8 items only 2 had もく reading. However, looking at the whole list it’s not that popular either: only 6 occurences

Hmm… possibly. However, given that WK doesn’t actually focus/make distinction between on’yomi/kanji and vocabulary reading, comments like this one “it uses on’yomi which you should be able to read” are kinda useless :frowning: At least in the second message/example you actually reference a place where the taught reading comes from (considering it differ from pink/kanji pages) so it would be nice to improve that particular page :slight_smile:

Hmm… but the phrasing of that sentence is just weird and misleading? :smiley:

Had to dig to remind myself which one was that and found it: Alley: https://www.wanikani.com/vocabulary/路地

This is a jukugo word, which usually means on’yomi readings from the kanji. You’ve learned these readings already, so you should be able to read this word too! And remember, that it’s the じ reading that you learned with 生地 here.

If you had finished with "And remember, that it’s the じ reading that you learned with 生地. " that would indicate that you point to that reading but adding “here” at the end suggests that you are going to link to some “here” for more context?

Alas, pondering this problem a bit more I came to two conclussions/suggestions:

  1. actually using “HERE” as a link to vocab which gives you the reading mnemonic would be awesome. I’m using [Userscript] WK Vocab Breakdown which is super useful, but obviously it doesn’t work when the composition/reading is based on other vocabulary and not the kanji item
  2. (visual tweak) quite often you start the description with: “This is a jukugo word, which usually means on’yomi readings from the kanji.” (or “ku’yomi”). It would be great to have some sort of visual indication which one are used without having to go through whole “wall of text”

from the reading page for 科目:

The readings are the on’yomi readings, but you learned the kun’yomi reading for 目 before. So, you have to remember that this word uses もく instead of め.

The readings are the on’yomi readings, but you learned the kun’yomi reading for 目 before. So, you have to remember that this word uses もく instead of め.

Call me crazy but “lol just remember it,” is so incredibly unhelpful.

i only quoted the first two sentences of the reading page, so you might be responding out of context. if you click through that link i provided above, you see that the remainder of the reading page offers a helpful mnemonic to learn the on’yomi reading, just like the rest of WK.

the reason i quoted only that initial part was to make the point that WK is distinguishing clearly between on’yomi and kun’yomi, despite the claim otherwise.


not to put too fine a point on it, but the job of learning to read is remembering which reading applies to a kanji in a particular vocabulary word. in that sense “lol just remember it” is the entire reason all of us are here. in the end, it’s WK’s job to teach, right, but it’s my job to learn.

That’s the thing - as show in the first message it’s not completely true as there are parts that only vaguely mention where it should have been learned.
I wouldn’t mind that if there were better linking between the pages so I could easily hop to the relevant bit of information to refresh my memory, alas – it’s not there either…

Riiigh, if you had read “the claim” you would see that’s not what’s it all about :wink:

(“not to put too fine a point on it, but” – I’m so loving “yeah, but” :P)

While this is completely true that it’s a student job to… study, it would be nice if the tool used would be more helpful at times (to match the otwerwise brilliant standard). I don’t know why you got so defensive when someone tries to point out that some kanji/vocab pages are somewhat lacking. World is not perfect, neither is WK, but we can suggest improvements to make it so…

Just a note that we’ve updated the reading explanation:

This is a jukugo word that uses on’yomi readings of the kanji. You’ve seen them before, but the もく reading for 目 is still pretty new, so here’s a mnemonic:

You always provide a table of contents when you mock (もく) someone. Your mockery tends to be complicated and go on for a long time, like you’re some kind of roast comedian or something, so it helps to distribute a table of contents to the people you’re mocking. They really appreciate it.

Thanks again for the feedback!

More transparency is good. I’m sure WK would prefer it if they only have to respond to one forum thread rather than 1000 different users reporting exactly the same issue.

Thank you! :heart_hands:

This is a balance problem. Forums can be more “profilic” and keeping up with all threads can be problematic. Direct contact form probably results in less traffic and can be managed easier (new issue → process it → close)

One more for this ongoing problem that has no reason to exist in the first place.

Rather than teach the on’yomi of 首, しゅ, both the kanji and vocabulary teach the same kun’yomi くび.

Then, about half of the vocabulary taught using the kanji use the しゅ reading anyway. Why is the only mnemonic for しゅ hidden in the description of a relatively useless word like “radical?” By the inclusion of so many words that use the on’yomi reading, it’s clearly not a super obscure thing that shouldn’t be taught, even if the kun’yomi is more common.

The reason the vocab for 首 teaches the kun’yomi くび is because that is the correct reading. It wouldn’t be correct to teach it to you as the on’yomi しゅ for the stand-alone vocab reading. From there, I’m assuming they choose to teach the kanji as the kun’yomi for it to match the vocab. The kanji and vocab of 首 are both in level 6, but the on’yomi doesn’t come up until level 10 with the vocab for radical. It wouldn’t make sense to teach you the on’yomi for the kanji 首 just for the vocab in the same level to be kun’yomi, and then you not use the on’yomi at all for another 4 levels.

The mnemonic for the on’yomi しゅ first comes up with the vocab for radical which is why they teach it to you for the first time then. Although, I agree that if the reading comes up a lot in other vocab too, it would make sense to have more than one mnemonic, especially if its a newly learned reading.

Correct. It would not be correct to teach that for the stand alone vocab reading.

Here is the page for the standalone vocab reading https://www.wanikani.com/vocabulary/首 which uses くび which I have no problem with.

My problem is that they ALSO taught the same reading here https://www.wanikani.com/kanji/首 for the kanji itself.

This is where the on’yomi reading should be being taught. This is the place to have a mnemonic for the しゅ reading because it isn’t exclusively related to “radical” and having the only mnemonic for that reading be about the word radical makes thing more difficult when you reach things like 首位 that are unrelated to that vocabulary.

The problem that we’re all having is that they have 2 separate pages for an individual kanji, once as the kanji, and once as standalone vocabulary. There is no reason to have two different pages if you’re going to teach the same reading and same meaning, and neglect directly teaching the other reading and meaning.

Even if they are going to insist on teaching the kunyomi with a particular kanji, I wish they would at least accept the onyomi in reviews. Few things enrage me more than “we’re looking for the kunyomi” when it’s a review for a kanji that I know has words that use the onyomi reading.