My problem with mnemonics...(thoughts please?)

I been on wanikani a couple of months now, and you will eventually forget the mnemonic and just remember the meaning and pronunciations.

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Just reiterating what everyone has said, especially viet, once I hit guru I just think of the kanji and not the mnemonic at all. Especially when you start getting into vocab, you don’t see two kanji next to each other and think okay, mnemonic mnemonic + mnemonic = kanji + kanji = vocab word. You’ll start to think Kanji + Kanji = vocab, then just like with mnemonics, youll start to see the vocab word and just think oh, thats blank. Everything is a support until the real learning starts to form.

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If anything, the fact that you still remember the mnemonic is generally a sign you haven’t fully memorized the word/kanji yet. This has been my experience anyway. If I have to think through the mnemonic in my head, it’s because I still have a ways to go to instantly recognize the item. Once you see a word and instantly know it, the mnemonic never even comes into your thoughts.

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My experience is pretty much the same as most people’s: the mnemonics (at least the good ones) have been a great help in memorizing, but I didn’t even remember that I initially learned かわ as cow until I read the initial post :slight_smile: So I think you have nothing to worry about at all!

I’ll add that the mnemonics are also useful for those times when you brain fart and just can’t quite remember a character’s reading or meaning, or can’t remember which of two similar kanji it is. Often it’s not even the full mnemonic, but rather “oh, that’s the one with king in it, so it’s so-and-so”.

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Exactly this. How often do you look at a kanji in WK? For rarer things let’s say 10 times, even if you burned it. That’s not a large number.

It is easy to underestimate the effort needed to have a fluent feeling in a language. Like, “I studied WK two years now, why can’t I just read a text quickly like a Japanese?” Because the Japanese already studied for decades and reads every day.

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@vargsvans has a good post including a section about mnemonics …it’s focus was different than that of this topic, but I think it’s still worth mentioning -

It does involve creating your own mnemonics, which takes effort, but it helps avoid mix ups when WK uses different mnemonics for the same sound (e.g. ぎ can be either guitar or guillotine), or the same mnemonic for different sounds (e.g. row for りょう and ろう). Anyway, it’s better and more thoroughly explained in the post…

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A couple of years ago, I read up on a bunch of studies about this topic. There aren’t very many high quality studies for long-term language learning results, but I gleaned a few things from the ones I was able to find, along with some of my personal experiences.

Rote-memorization

Pros:

  • You internalize (i.e. make fluent) the information faster, as long as you practice rigorously.
  • By internalizing the memorized info earlier, you can also internalize other aspects of language learning a little earlier (such as grammar and listening).
  • You may end up with very slightly better fluency in the long term, though not to any significant extent (this was the conclusion of the long-term studies I found, so no flames please :slight_smile: ).

Cons:

  • Some people find that it’s more work (I think it depends on the strength of your memory).
  • The positive benefits are diminished if you don’t practice regularly.
  • You may forget more quickly if you don’t use what you learn.

Mnemonics:

Pros:

  • You can memorize the information with less effort in the short term, which is especially helpful if you are short on time or your memory is not strong.
  • If you are learning at a more leisurely pace, mnemonics will help you retain the information longer. This is especially helpful for people who are busy or have to take breaks from learning.

Cons:

  • Internalizing other aspects of language (like grammar and listening) may be more difficult while you are still relying on the mnemonics. But, of course, this gets easier over time.
  • Your long-term fluency may be very slightly negatively affected, though, again, not to a significant extent.

Alternatives:

If you want the benefits of mnemonics, but with shorter internalization time, you can create shorter mnemonics that are specifically designed to fade away quickly, though it’s a bit challenging to come up with them. The main thing is to have a very short mnemonic, and put the Reading as close to the front as possible, followed as closely as possible by the Meaning. For example, for you might try “cows like the river” (while picturing cows congregating along the banks of 川 ). That way, the first thing you think of when you see 川 is ‘cow (kawa)’, and the second thing is ‘river’. Try not to use any words that could confuse or distract you, like “cows swim in the river”, because ‘swim’ gets between the reading and meaning, which distracts you from ‘river’. You want see 川 and immediately think “kawa river” (with reading always coming first, for reasons I’ve explained in other threads).

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I don’t really see how you can make this complaint at level 1. I could see if you burned the item 6 months from now while still thinking about cows, but that seems pretty unlikely.

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Perfect timing for this post! This morning I just burned all of my level 1 radicals. And if I hadn’t put in custom synonyms for most of them, I probably would’ve gotten most of them wrong. Why? I don’t remember them by either their mnemonic nor by the name WaniKani gives them.

For 一, named “Ground,” I added both “One” and “Ichi.” To me, “Ground” has a completely different kanji, so that particular mnemonic/name became completely relevant. By nature of how mnemonics are designed, if you keep a decently fast pace on WaniKani, you will definitely forget most of the radicals while remembering the readings of most of the kanji. I personally don’t use WaniKani’s mnemonics due to how much they “stretch” the pronunciation (or any mnemonics at all, except for leeches), but if they work for you, don’t be afraid to use them! I don’t remember the mnemonic I used to remember the order of the planets, but I do remember that Saturn was Spaghetti. Do I have to think of Spaghetti to remember Saturn? I hope not! :laughing:

In the case of 川, sure, it’s fine to remember it by かわ, but it a confirmed fact by linguists and neurologists that after around the age of 12, it actually becomes impossible for you to learn a language without understanding it through your natural language(s). So, unless you are under that age, you have to use some English in order to grasp the fundamentals for Japanese. As you get more advanced, you’ll rely on it less.

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If it makes you feel any better, I don’t even remember this cow mnemonic that you’re talking about. I’d have to go look it up. :smiley:

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Its damn hard I agree. I see the river because the Kanji is similar to the Hiragana for Ri with the mnemonic River.

I struggle with the mnemonics that are used because it is someone else’s brain that has come up with them. The Joseph Stalin one is a classic. It makes no sense to me but must have to the author who came up with it. For above and below I would have gone with something that happens in the bedroom other than sleep but that’s me LOL…

I think it pays to spend a lot more time on the readings and adapt the story to your own mind. Take the river one. I can see the banks of the river in my mind and the flow of the water in the middle. The author uses cows so I make a little movie in my head. There’s John Wayne heading down to the bank of the river with a herd of cows. Look at the flow in the middle of the river! Will he make it. He pushes the cows in and they swim through the middle and up the other bank. Wow - they made it. He looks at the cows and they are dripping from the water. He looks back, he sees the banks and the flow in the middle. Yeehaa - he is off!

Weird huh?. For me its the movie in my head that helps.

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I’m pretty sure a lot of people here make their own mnemonics. There have been several threads where people mentioned not understanding words or people mentioned in them. I’m currently remembering that the standalone reading for Buddha 仏「ほとけ」 is that Buddhas eat too many hot cakes, and that’s why they’re fat. It works better for me than the supplied one, and I know I won’t remember the reading otherwise since “Buddha” is way too solidly in my head.

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Does making your own mnemonic muck it up later on? IE: if the mnemonic is ‘crab’ and you make your own up say ‘donkey’ later on do the lessons rely on knowing ‘crab’?

Sorry if that makes no sense… LOL

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Fortunately and unfortunately not, if you’re asking about if not using WaniKani mnemonics will muck things up. One of the big problems with WaniKani’s mnemonics is that they aren’t very consistent. While this is a bad point for those using the mnemonics, it also means you aren’t missing out much if you use your own. When it comes to making your own, you have to go with how you learn. I personally only make mnemonics with words that (to my knowledge) have a unique reading; in other words, I’ve never heard another word that is the same from that point. As a result, I don’t normally make mnemonics for On’Yomi, which are usually short and shared quite often.

How much a mnemonic you create yourself messes you up is up to you. I try to limit mnemonics to the usually more-exclusive Kun’yomi since the risk of overlap is lower (like my hot cake example). Picking a very specific term to replace a general On’Yomi like きょう could easily come back to haunt you if you’re not a creative person. If the WaniKani mnemonics don’t stick, however, you’re better off trying your own and failing then expending the effort to adapt to a system that you already found out doesn’t work well.

My primary memory solidification method is verbal recitation while practicing writing the kanji. Typically repeating a reading 100 times as I write it 100 times is enough to ingrain it. Though most people on here don’t prioritize practicing writing characters to my knowledge, as it’s the least useful skill compared to reading, listening, and speaking.

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Although this approach takes more time, I have really solidified by knowledge by physically writing out the answers when using KaniWani. Forces me to remember the whole kanji, not just the reading and the rough shape.

Around level 8 I was starting to feel like I could recognize and somewhat read kanji I learnt in the wild, but so long as I didn’t truly know how to write it (i.e. what exactly all the details were) I felt I’d forget them soon enough.

To each their own! Mnemonics are amazing help when trying to write btw

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I think the mnemonic are only part of the Wanikani program, the other key is SRS. the more I use the kanji, more familiar I become with it until the mnemonics become meaningless.

Hi there! :slight_smile: I actually just started using WK yesterday, and I’m really glad this topic was made!

When I started last night, I felt a little bit of panic. Since I’ve taken two years of university Japanese in the past, I’m familiar with much of the material of level one. It felt really unnatural to look at the “エ” radical, for example, and think something as abstract as “construction” when I already recognize it as the “e” katakana. The idea of memorizing it as something so abstract (and does its meaning in kanji have anything to do with construction?) made me nervous! It seemed like a step backwards. That’s when I clicked on this post and read the responses.

When I saw the “女” radical, I just knew it was “onna” by sight. That’s the level OP says they want to achieve, and it’s a great goal! However, when reading this thread, I remembered the completely forgotten trick I used to memorize “女” in the first place! It’s embarrassing, but years ago, I think Naruto showed that the individual parts of “女” can be pulled apart to spell “くノ一” or kunoichi: female ninja. It’s not as abstract as “construction,” but it was a roundabout method I used to memorize what is now an instantly recognized character.

It’s interesting that we use these tricks naturally but become nervous about them anyway! For me, I think my expectations of myself as an adult who “should know everything already” clouded the usefulness of mnemonics. I forgot how to humbly be a beginner. That’s just me, though! :stuck_out_tongue:

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The kanji of that shape has the meaning of construction. Yes, it’s the same shape as the katakana, but it’s a different character. It’s a step toward reading kanji.

I’m completely aware of the difference between katakana and radicals! :slight_smile: I was talking about in terms of learning as a beginner and already having ways of recognizing things that diverge from WK’s system. I didn’t know the mnemonic matches up with the actual meaning of that radical, though, as most university courses don’t teach kanji via a radical method. Its kanji, too, isn’t one I remember from the Genki system for years 1 and 2. You inspired me to look up its meaning, and apparently it’s related to craftsmanship. I’m so glad to learn something new!

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But the kanji does mean construction, like in 工事 and 工場.