I thought you were a catgirl :c
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Yeah, the 4.5-5 years I gave can be kinda misleading since a lot of people spend 4-5 years learning a language in school and dont get nearly as far, right. When I started reading books, everyday I spent over 4 hours studying actively without exception. This is where the part about everyone struggling more than they look like comes in imo.
People kinda have expectations for how hard people worked, how easy reading is for other people, etc. and I think in a lot of cases those expectations are too low. I hear a lot about how people arent ready for novels/vns and theyre at a level 10x higher than I was when I started. Its like they realize its hard and it will take awhile and thats a sign theyre not ready. In reality, its pretty much always gonna be hard unless you put it off way way too long and everyone else struggled just as much as youre gonna.
FYI I post on the extensive reading thread but I dont actually extensively read. Its just at this point, if I pick a mid difficulty book theres only a couple dozen things I dont know anyways and I can get them from context so theres not much of a difference.
But no I dont think youre misinterpreting it. What I say in the video about blowing through it and whitenoising it is just about not understanding what youre reading. If youre putting in effort and understanding your reading, I think youre doing fine and wouldnt say that goes against anything I said.
I think in a lot of areas, intensive is more efficient than extensive, but its not like youre whitenoising by not perfectly grasping everything the first time around. So if you dont want to intensively read, then dont. The goal of acquiring knowledge doesnt change however and that still requires your effort and focus.
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So this is why you can tell how many hours youāve put in 0:
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Yes there was no fluctuation in my work per day during that period. I had a 5 hour gap in my schedule at university because I had morning classes and then an evening class. So I would eat and study Japanese in the library for that entire time. I can count the amount of days I missed my 20 words and reading for on one hand for that first year and in all cases I did double the next day. After the first year things got a bit more lenient
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Iāve done both, and I can definitely say that I learn more with the former, but once I got to the point where coming across new things is few and far between, I just went with the other one exclusively (because itās way more fun).
From ććć©ć島ē¶ŗč, I only learned č„ć, ä½µć, å”ć¦, and 天ēéÆ* (one of those words is not like the others), which is only a fraction of the things I didnāt know that I came across in that book, but yeah, still a positive. And since itās not even my focus, thatās zero cost, giving me infinite efficiency.
*Edit: I forgot ēøéććć¾ćć in the list.
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I think the way I would describe it for me, is itās like Iāve got a gearbox of how fast or slow to move through a book, and at first only the āpick through with maximum carefulnessā gear was available, but as I got more experienced more and more gears unlocked, from āif you donāt fully get a spot but move on and stay emotionally invested in the scene and the rhythm thatās fineā all the way up to āskim and just get the gist.ā
The goal when Iāve been reading has always been to understand the story and have fun reading, itās just sometimes itās more practical or more fun to read in a low gear than a high gear, so to speak, and sometimes vice-versa.
Out of curiosity, what exactly do you mean by ālearnedā (as in āI only learned č„ć, ä½µć, å”ć¦, and 天ēéÆ*ā)?
I think maybe part of why I donāt think of it as reading to learn vs. reading for fun is Iāve set up my workflow for maximum passivity in the moment. Like, I may or may not lookup 天ēéÆ, and if I do Iād probably add it to the import word list, but all that changes at that point is that some months in the future itāll be put in a giant random anki hopper with thousands of other words I looked up in books I read in that chunk of time, to be eventually reviewedā¦ some time between now and mid-2023 at this rateā¦
And stuff outside of a dictionary Iāll pretty much do the same way and just leave a tab open on my phone until a bunch accumulate and I get around to making anki cards from them.
Iāve looked up so much stuff on my phone at this point itās basically second nature, so I guess Iāve contorted the system to minimize the effort in the moment, since if I look it up itāll get captured (eventually), so itās just up to me reading how much stuff I want/need to look up, whether because I need to to understand whatās happening, for clarification and peace of mind, or just because I spot a fun but pointless word. (with the reading gear Iām in factoring in to how much of each I do in the end)
But at the same time itās hard to measure (or remember naturally!) how many words I learned over the course of one book - since arguably I wonāt have learned any for sure until far in the future when they bubble up again in anki.
So Iām curious if/how that description differs with your (or Vanillaās, or anyoneās) experience! Itās really interesting to compare.
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It seems to me that there are two approaches: read in order to learn Japanese and learn Japanese in order to read. Vanilla seems to be more inclined towards approach No. 1, you seem to be more inclined towards approach No. 2.
So am I, actually. Iām learning Japanese because there are a bunch of books I want to read that arenāt and probably wonāt ever be translated (among other things). Japanese is not my end-goal, itās my tool.
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I srs words as I come across them and I also re srs words Iād forgot the reading or meaning of. So when I say I learned 7 words from a book that means I started srsing 7 words. Might have been able to learn 3 without srsing them for all I know.
I donāt think this is a good take on it. Youāre basically just comparing the end result with no attention for how we got here which goes against the entire point of the thread which is how to get to a high level in reading.
Rodan still very much used reading as a tool for learning. He has amassed a lot of knowledge from books and srsed a lot of words from books. He had fun doing it.
I used reading as a tool for learning. I amassed a lot of knowledge from books and srsed a lot of words from books. I had fun doing it.
Youāre doing an injustice by claiming we had some different approach because youāre basically denying the massively similar method we had which, imo, is the whole point of the video. The whole point is comprehending what youāre reading and filling your head with knowledge. If you read rodans reply (specifically the part of about the gear) itās clear he placed importance at the start around comprehending what he was reading and not just trying to be done with it.
Nowadays, we have certainly diverged a bit. But thatās after Rodan is already a very skilled reader and so am I.
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That makes me realize that Iām probably much closer to intensive reading rather than extensive, since I would always stay close to your first gear. At this point, itās just a matter that the unknown parts are few and far between, so the impact on speed is limited.
I know the reading of those words, their meaning, and their usage. I donāt think Iāll forget them anytime soon either.
In contrast, while I know all those things for ęµćć, I will probably forget it soon. This one would benefit to be put in an SRS for reinforcement (which I wonāt do).
One level lower, I do not even remember the reading of 处ćć, no matter that I looked it up a billion times. That one would really require me to sit down and think about it, AND add it to an SRS. Iāll be doing none of those things.
Itās definitely hard to get an exact number, but I donāt think knowing said number really matters. Also, I know I have seen 处ćć and ęµćć before (but donāt remember them well enough). If they somehow stick this time, it would be weird to count just this single book as the cause. Previous (and future) occurrences do matter as well. But sometimes, it just feels like a word āclicksā in my brain, so I can at least notice that. There might be other words that clicked as well that I donāt remember clicked at that time, and eventually I will forget regardless if Iām not exposed to a word ever again (since Iām SRSless now).
Edited to add:
Ah, yes, I mentioned before in the thread, but I did use an SRS at some point, adding words I donāt know while reading (Floflo, the same @Vanilla mentioned). I only stopped when I got to a high enough level that spending time learning more didnāt noticeably improve my reading anymore.
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Gotcha, interesting! For me those seven words would disappear into a big srs void.
I think from how folks talk about srs, my system that puts a huge amount of time and distance between when a word gets marked for srs and when it actually starts being reviewed is probably unusual. And it might be why I donāt think of study as tied in with the reading so much - by the time I study it the book is long gone. While Iām reading I just make do with the lookup itself and whatever memory is triggered by āoh this came up in a novel beforeā or āwow I looked this up tons of times beforeā or āoh neat a new wordā and I guess what the (eventual) SRS gives me is a feeling of safety that at some point in the future itāll get more absorbed and it wonāt live in my head as just a dictionary entry forever.
But the process would surely probably be snappier if I did go right into reviews for reinforcement!
I do think though that theyāre right about the phrasing. Like, if I remember right (and based on the timing of both you and Napthaleneās responses lol) youāre in Japan?
I think itās hard for me to think of what Iāve done as āusing reading as a tool for learningā since thereās really no practical reason whatsoever for my learning Japanese at this particular place and time in my life, except for the fun I get reading. So itās a lot easier for me to think of it as like, āI had fun reading and coincidentally learning a language happened at the same time, wow!ā
I would imagine with the language itself being a pressing goal outside of (although still deeply tied into) reading, a lot of that kind of āreading as a toolā phrasing comes more naturally.
Yeah, itās really only with keeping up with magazines (both manga and wrestling) that I think I really go up into the faster gears to the point I feel like I might be missing out on stuff I would get if I slowed down. Usually with say, a novel Iām invested in, I would either be taking my time, or maybe be roiled up with emotion and pushing through a bit quicker but still trying to understand everything.
(Iām honestly not sure how it all maps with intensive/extensive, I just tend to think of it as reading either wayā¦)
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Out of curiosity, how was č„ć read in context? Seems like it can be the kanji version of ćć, or ććØć (clearly related to ććØćć»ććØć, though seems like thatās usually å¦ć?), or of course it could be ććć, as in the conjugation of č„ć. (Given the other words you mentioned, Iām assuming it was ćć, but wanted to check.)
Ha, I learned äøęµć from ę¬å„½ć.
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fyi I just moved to japan and it has basically not influenced my reading at all lol. Theres no practical reason for me to learn this stuff either because at this point almost all the stuff I learn is either stuff japanese people dont know or they know and dont use in my everyday life.
But no, regardless of if you view reading as a tool, I dont think that you would disagree that a huge chunk of your knowledge came from reading, no? And in order for that to be the case, you have to have comprehended what you read in some capacity. Its that simple. Regardless of what you intended to do, you improved your japanese through reading no different than I did.
So again, it doesnt matter how you frame it. It doesnt matter what we had our eyes set on. We did the same exact thing getting there, and thats have fun reading and absorb knowledge. Like actually take a second and think about if I pulled a random snapshot of us from the past couple years engaging in japanese. Chances are high that we are going to be doing the same exact thing for the most part. Reading through something, trying to understand it, looking up words.
I think its pointless to care about the why in a thread thats just about the how. Why we read is different (maybe? idk people seem to think I dont like reading books all of a sudden even though at the start of the video I said the whole reason I initially started was because of a light novel and its pretty common knowledge I enjoy those things), but who cares, we did it pretty much the same way and benefitted from a language standpoint. So if this were a thread about why you read japanese, I think its fair to put us in separate categories. From the how did we learn japanese, perspective, though? Get used to it man, we are in the same group.
Again though, the whole thing is moot. People who wanna learn the language and people who wanna read are gonna do the same exact thing until group B is able to read lol.
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Yes, thinking more about it, I feel like, at some point, there isnāt much of a difference between the twoā¦
It was ćć. I didnāt know about ććØć, but yes, thatās usually å¦. In any case, the context of the sentence does make it obvious 
Ooooh! That might be where I picked it from. The first time I came across ęµćć, the correct reading just popped into my brain, but that somehow failed the second time around. That showed me that (a) I had seen it before and (b) it wasnāt really solidified.
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Oh yeah, donāt worry! I 100% agree our processes and general goals are far more similar than not!
I think I was talking about only a semantic/modeling distinction at most. Which is interesting from a communication perspective even if itās ultimately not a practical difference.
Like my original comment was pretty much āoh huh! that sounds largely similar but I wouldnāt have phrased X thing like that, I wonder if that means the process itself was different?ā And it sounds like no, not really, you just happened to pick different phrasing than me. I agree itās best not to read too much into that wording difference or draw boundary lines based around it.
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The difference being, when they reach fluency, group B will still have the same amount of fun while groupe A (like MatvsJapan or you (?)) will reach a āIām sad nowā phase
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Yeah re reading your reply, it seems like thats the case.
Probably the opposite. I think group a probably has more fun honestly. They get to not only enjoy reading but also enjoy learning more. I bet I have a lot more fun SRSing than most lol. Group B people probably dont have the same amount of fun as when they get fluent and it gradually goes up as they need to study less. Nath would be a good example of that.
The point of divergence would probably be group A trying to read harder and harder stuff and adding those super rare words they come across rather than just guessing at them.
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Itās kinda weird for me. When I first started learning Japanese, I had no purpose other than having a lot of free time and wanting something to challenge my mind. I started reading as a mechanism to aid learning. As time went on, I got more into reading manga and books and for a while now the reading has been mostly for fun, with a little bit of dedicated learning (SRSāing words) on the side. You could say that I was in group A for 2-3 years, and then moved to group B. I feel like as a result, I progress much more slowly than I could, because specifically spending a lot of time doing SRS (like when I was doing WaniKani) or doing formal grammar learning became tedious and I rarely do them these days. Often Iāll go days at a time between Kitsun lessons, and the rare times unknown grammar gets in my way Iāll do a quick search to find the meaning and move on, likely forgetting the grammar point right afterward since I donāt SRS it.
That said, I do still occasionally get that ālearning highā when I make some connection to how a piece of grammar works, or how some set phrase was derived from some classical grammar structure, etc. It just doesnāt happen often these days (as one would expect since so much knowledge gain is frontloaded in language learning), so I rarely get āpleasureā from studying Japanese anymore. The SRS is an annoying but still necessary part of my process, and other things like grammar study are almost entirely ignored, all in favor of reading more and more. Even if itās less efficient in the long run and means Iām not learning as quickly as I could.
I wish I had the patience to learn thousands upon thousands of words in a short period of time as you did. I guess for now Iāll continue to settle for the slow and steady approach. Maybe in another 5 years Iāll be where youāre at now.
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Nobody is 100% group A or group B, of course itās a mix of both. 100% B will just read the translated version as you said, 100% A will just read a dictionnary (and by definition will drop the language once there is nothing left to be learnt).
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Yep! You can definitely transition and change as you go and usually everyone is a mix of both to some extent. And I mean, people who enjoy learning japanese might still enjoy reading just as much as other people.
A good example at the difference when it comes to that divergence point is probably just comparing how nath responded to being able to read a book and get everything with context compared to how I responded to it.
Nath stopped SRSing and doesnt really have an interest in nailing in obscure kanji or words
I not only kept srsing, but now also srs obscure kanji even if the word was in kana and learn usually multiple kanken level 1 kanji per day now.
We both got to the point where we had a lot of breathing room and flexibility. He used that breathing room to read more. I used that breathing room to learn more. And thats not to say I barely read obviously. Its just that I do my best to fill my 20 words per day, yknow. Sometimes it takes 100-200 pages to get my 20 words though depending on the book. Sometimes its more like 400 pages. So if Im only reading 100 pages for the day because time, might as well squeeze some more learning out of it by learning ē«ć ćć¾ as ē«éē£Ø instead.
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Btw, what kind of SRS do you do ? JP-EN, JP-JP, just context sentences ?
(nath is a they)
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