Level 60 (well kind of) post and my (admittedly overly critical) opinion on WaniKani

I think I’m largely pretty much in agreement with Daisoujou here. I feel like if I wanted to, I could quit WK now and learn the rest of the kanji and vocab on my own through Anki (I’ve already proven to myself that I can do it). However, I would not have been able to do that at all without the base that WK gave me. It taught me how to look at kanji and see them in terms of radicals and such, as well as teaching me how to use mnemonics to memorize readings and meanings, plus so many countless other things.

But I’m not giving up WK and switching to Anki for a few reasons. One of them is that I don’t want to do a whole bunch of work that someone else has already done for me. There are some lesser used vocab words in WK, yes, but the vast majority are pretty common, and also I’m ultimately interested in broadening my vocabulary as much as possible, anyway, so I’m interested in learning more uncommon words as well.

I think other people have already pointed out that the vocab are usually how you end up remembering the kanji, anyway. That has certainly proven true for me. I’ll regularly fail reviews for isolated kanji, but pass all of my reviews for the vocab words that contain it. Also, unlike the OP, I absolutely need to spend more time SRSing stuff before it really sticks for me. Just a handful of reviews is not enough. And I like the する verbs and the words like 明朗 because they give me extra reps with the kanji readings without adding much to my daily cognitive load.

As far as WK SRS vs Anki’s SRS goes, both work just fine for me, in terms of learning the content. Anki is less stressful because it’s less punishing than WK, but I think there is some value in having to type out the words. WK gave me loads of practice typing in Japanese and also familiarizing myself with long vowels and such. As a beginner, that was very important, and I think it’s something I would be hazier on if I was using a less strict SRS. I still think I’m less prone to making mistakes when typing or writing WK words, because I had the correct reading drilled into my head. With Anki words, my recognition is fine, but when it comes to producing them, I’ll get the sound of the word generally right, but will occasionally make mistakes. So there is a trade-off, I think.

There is one major benefit to WK, though, that I don’t have in Anki, and that is the Keisei semantic-phonetic composition script. Honestly, that script alone makes WK completely worth it to me. Semantic-phonetic composition of kanji is absolutely something you can learn on your own, but I think WK is uniquely well-suited to teach it, because this program teaches so many kanji in a relatively short period of time, so it is quite easy to go from knowing almost nothing about it to developing a good eye for it purely from doing your WK lessons with no additional study. It would be possible to recreate this work in Anki, but adding this information to every kanji on your own would be extremely tedious.

In a similar vein, I’ve gotten a lot of value from the rendaku information script. Now when I see rendaku in new words I’m learning, I have a pretty good sense for it, and don’t have much trouble remembering it. That was a skill I developed, once again, purely from exposure over time. I’ve read Tofugu’s in-depth article on the subject, but the information didn’t really start to stick until after I’d been using this script for months.

I guess perhaps that falls under the OP’s criticism of WK being too reliant on scripts. I do think there is room for improvement here, especially with the scripts that just add extra information without changing the core functionality of the site.

Honestly, I think a huge part of the process of learning Japanese is learning how to learn Japanese. And part of that is discovering new tools that you didn’t know existed because you didn’t know where to look before. WK is definitely a very findable tool for absolute beginners, so I think a lot more people end up here than, say, making custom kanji decks on Anki. I’m not sure that efficiency is as easily quantifiable as people like to think, though, because often the most efficient route is not the most pleasant one, and for many people, that’s a recipe for burnout.

For me personally, I legitimately love learning kanji, and I love learning vocab. I even enjoy studying grammar in a textbook because I find it interesting! It’s not actually a significant cost to me to spend my time on SRS or with my textbook or practicing writing kanji or whatever because studying is legitimately an enjoyable activity to me. I regularly look forward to learning future kanji and vocab in WK.

Could I reach a higher level of Japanese skill going about this another way? Yes, surely. But as long as I’m enjoying what I’m doing and I’m steadily making progress, I’m completely fine with it. I don’t see the need to optimize everything. As long as I keep learning kanji, vocab, and grammar, I’ll eventually be able to read all of the things I want to read, and my listening comprehension and production are also gradually improving. I’m more interested in finding a method of learning that I can keep doing every single day for years. If it takes me five years to reach N1, that’s fine with me. I care more that I don’t burn out before then, and that I never reach a point where I stop working to improve. I want language learning to be a lifelong commitment.

In that sense, I agree that it’s bad for people to put too much in WK to the point where they neglect their other studies. I also think it’s bad for most people to go full speed (unless they already have a lot of Japanese knowledge, or they have an ungodly amount of free time to put into studying the language each day).

From what I’ve seen, many of the people who start as a beginner and go max speed end up reaching level 60 and basically stall out. They end up with the ability to read kanji, some several thousand vocab words, and… nothing else. Or they manage to complete level 60 alongside building their grammar knowledge, but fail to pick up an SRS habit (or another learning method) outside of WK, and stop progressing once they finish the program. In those cases, WK can be a bit of a crutch.

Ultimately my opinion is that the best method is the one that works for you. For some people, WK is that method! But if it is, it’s also good to think about what you’re going to do along with it and after it. Maybe Tofugu could be better at their messaging here than they are, but honestly I think the nature of the thing is you can repeat as many times as you want that learning kanji is only part of learning Japanese, and that WK is essentially training wheels that at some point will need to come off, but a lot of the users will still fail to internalize that. Gamification can be incredibly motivating, but the flipside of that is that “winning” the game can easily become more important than actually learning the language.

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i think you’ re making this statement based on how you learn. i’d think most people are not like you. i need the reviews for the vocab. and i love easy vocab reviews because they provide satisfaction. if all the vocab reviews were on hard words, it would be painful to go through them. on top of that, all those reviews just mean recognition speed increases.

also, my reorder script works fine on my PC and i did not do anything to it.

anyhow, congrats on getting this far. if you want cake, come back with that shiny 60 gold flair :wink:

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I can relate, I’m also a portuguese speaker. I ended by improving my english vocabulary while learning japanese vocabulary. “Loiter” and “Ladle” I’m looking at you.

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I think OP raises some valid points, and I have my fair share of criticism of WK as well, but I can’t fully agree with everything. In particular, I feel that it’s generally useful that WK includes vocab. That said:

  • I think WK would work better with just half the vocab. To me, the vocab serves to reinforce the Kanji (both the meanings and the readings). That would work equally well if there was fewer of it. I don’t actually mind easy vocab as much (e.g. I agree some of the する stuff is useless, but it also doesn’t take away much time because of how easy it is) – what’s worse to me is the vocab I keep getting wrong because it was a weird rendaku’d reading or the meaning is non-obvious. Leeches are a problem in general, but when it’s a leech that feels disconnected from your actual goal (learning Kanji), you end up wasting a lot of time.

  • I prefer actually learning vocab through other means, e.g. Anki. As said, for reinforcing Kanji, WK vocab is fine, but I rarely feel like I really “know” a word even when I burned it on WK, so when I encounter something e.g. in Genki, I still add it as an Anki card. Learning and reviewing vocab in context, where you know how the vocab is used, is more valuable to me. Also, WK suffers from too many synonyms. While maybe you will have to learn all these synonyms sooner or later, WK presents them to you often at the same time because they use the same Kanji etc.

  • I agree that the lack of customisability of WK is almost infuriating. I wouldn’t have made it this far without scripts / the FlamingDurtles app. Everyone has their own preference, of course, but “no override script” would just kill WK for me.

  • Also as an additional point, WK’s selling point is usually the mnemonics, but I find that at least in half of the cases the mnemonic isn’t actually that good (especially for vocab it’s often downright lazy) and I also don’t always like how they break down Kanji (e.g. they break them down into different “radicals” even when some of them could be combined into a Kanji you already know)

For me, WK is definitely still worth it (even with vocab), but I do feel it could be improved significantly. That said, hopefully I’ll be able to reach 60 this year and after that, it’s just been one step on the journey to learning Japanese, so whatever.

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I don’t think cutting down vocab is feasible. Some kanji have larger vocab lists because future kanji appear in words that also use them. It’d be a mess.

I think vocab having a shorter srs interval is the way to go. The vocab in WK shouldn’t be to get you to properly learn a word, but to get accostumed with the kanji, and the srs should reflect that. Plus, I find that while some vocab in wk are really common and useful, learning vocab is easier with context (vocab of a textbook, a book, a movie, a game, a lesson even) vs wk’s deattached system (learn a word, see a couple sentences, and move on).

Though, maybe it’s not the best idea. I don’t know, I’m not very smart, so this could probably just make things worse instead lol

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I agree with OP contention that vocab actually bogs you down a lot and a big barrier in staying 0/0. The piling up reviews and lessons do not help at all in staying motivated, especially when you are short on time due to job/studies. There was a time when doing lessons/reviews of vocab used to be a dread for me, and my lessons used to pile up a lot. But I finally found a way to circumvent it.
I lowered the barrier for doing vocab lessons and reviews. I stopped reading context sentences, did not give more than ~10 seconds for doing a vocab lesson, did not focus much on remembering mnemonics or reading, completely started ignoring the vocab review accuracy %, and intentionally failed a vocab review if it took more than 3-4 seconds for me to answer one. I am at much more peace with vocab now. I do not fear vocab lessons/reviews anymore, and trust the SRS system to make me memorize them instead of putting any extra effort of my own.

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The context sentence are really just not all that good most of the time.

That said, I started out with trying to read the example sentences and then quickly gave it up, but more recently I went back to reading them sometimes (sometimes I only scan them and read the translation in order to understand how the vocab is used). It gets easier once you have a bit more grammar and more vocab.

Still, if I feel lazy I skip them and I don’t think I’m missing out much.

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I did the same for pretty much most of WK, but I think neither of us is the intended audience. They seem to be made for people who already know Japanese and just need to learn the Kanji.

Which is odd since WK is absolutely also targeted at people who are just starting out with Japanese.

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I came to WK after spending about a year on Duolingo (and still spend time there), and reading Tae Kim’s grammar book. I can often make sense of the example sentences in WK, but don’t generally feel like I get very much out of them (especially since there’s no SRS system in WK into which they’re built), and think that time’s definitely better spent working through Duo lessons or trying to read some “live” actual Japanese writing.

The example sentences on WK feel especially strange in that they don’t seem structured in the same kind of progressive way that the Kanji structure is, so that you only encounter example sentences when you’ve already seen all the vocabulary in them in earlier WK lessons. If they were structured like that, I think they might be more useful. As is, they just kind of feel weirdly tacked on.

True, but as @cruton_count points out:

So they can’t be aimed at rank beginners since they don’t scale in difficulty in any meaningful way.

For simple and concrete concepts they’re superfluous, but for difficult and abstract concepts you have to be at a decent level of Japanese to even understand them.

So I was probably being generous with what I thought the WK team’s goals had to be.

I don’t disagree with the assessment of the usefulness of the example sentences. I just wonder what the rationale was for writing them like this given that WK is explicitly also targeted to new learners.

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If I had to guess I’d say it’s that the order that facilitates Kanji learning isn’t an order that facilitates sentence difficulty.

Plus, you have to assume a lot of non-kanji word knowledge and at least some grammar knowledge.

Like the sentence for 下手 at level 2:

ギターはまだ下手ですが、まいばんれんしゅうしています。

In English it’s a pretty simple sentence. In Japanese, it’s not too bad but there’s still the が conjunction, て-form, and 毎晩練習 which actually took me a second to figure out because it doesn’t use the kanji since you learn those later.

Even some of Bunpro’s sentences are head scratchers and they explicitly order the material by readability.

I guess one option is they expect you to use the English translations to get the nuance and if you can read the Japanese it’s a bonus.

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I mean they could just as easily have written ギターは下手です instead of the more complicated sentence. It’s not really a problem with the vocab, at least not in this case.

They are adding new improved context sentences to some items (although this is happening rather slowly), so obviously there is a way to fix this.

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(My apologies in advance if you’ve already mentioned this)

So then, are you saying your preferred method of learning vocabulary is simply through reading, and gradually picking up on the meanings?

After reading these posts I guess I will use WK until lvl 50 only and then do more immersion to get the vocab once and for all, because I keep fogeting them all the time.

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I am only at Level 4 but I already see that some of the words in the vocabulary section are not very useful. They are really too abstract and out of context for the beginner level. Wanikani Team could definitely reduce the vocabulary by 50%. Or give people an option to remove the words that they don’t want to learn.

Well that will be rough to reduce the vocab by 50% since 90% of them are fairly common words, 75% of the words I’ve learned from wanikani is words that I’ve seen quite a bit in immersion (That I can recall). Besides, WK teaches you the readings of kanji, some might be obscure but that is a part of it. WK never claimed to teach you japanese, but to read.

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and now with Rona, this is an essential kanji that you will see in every store, school, and social setting :laughing:
You never know when a major event will make a kanji/vocab ridiculously ubiquitous…

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原子炉 reminded me on the relativity of importance in life :sweat_smile:
One week after the Tohoku earthquake suddenly the nuclear vocabulary got quite expanded.

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