Kitty Detectives! Week 6 Discussion 🐱

[_Marcus]

Page 62

画家は そのすきをついて 宝石をうめ, その上に, わたりろうかにつかった板を のせて, たき火をしていたのだ

Wow, another super long sentence! Let’s give it a try…

画家は - the artist + は
その - that
すき - gap
を - object marker
ついて - the て-form of 付く, attach
宝石を - jewels + を
うめ, - bury
その上に, - on top of which + に
わたりろうか - passage (I remember we had this before, but can’t find the page now)
に - particle
つかった - submerged (buried?)
板を - board + を
のせて, - placed, and
たき火を - bonfire + を
していた - was doing??
の - nominalisation (???)
だ - copula (???)

No, my brain is spinning. I can see what it’s getting at: “the artist placed the jewels in the hole and, on top of that, placed the board he’d used as a passageway, and then the bonfire” …

… but I’m mostly confused, I think by the ending. Instead of a verb we have what looks like a nominalisation. Is that right?

[Belthazar]

@marcusp

わたりろうか - passage (I remember we had this before, but can’t find the page now)

Last week sometime. It’s the page where she’s showing the detective what the back of the painter’s house looks like.

@marcusp

つかった - submerged (buried?)

It’s 使った = used. You got that right in your final translation.

@marcusp

Instead of a verb we have what looks like a nominalisation. Is that right?

This is のだ／んだ as “adds explanatory tone”.

[_Marcus]

Thank you so much @Belthazar! I panicked when I saw the sentence, but actually, it kind of came out okay, didn’t it?! Funny how I used “used” - what else would fit? And thank you so much for putting me right on the explanation particle, nice one! Thank you so much!

[Radish8]

@marcusp

• I’m guessing this is 見る, plus と (if, when)… ie, “when [we] look[ed]”. Is that right? And how about the grammar, is that how it works… you just stick the と onto the dictionary form?

Yes! One of the uses of と is to indicate an immediate effect of doing something. So as soon as X happens, Y happens. I often find it translates best to English as “on doing X…”

So in this case “on looking, there was a dog over by the road”.
Or even just “looking, there was a dog over by the road”.

@marcusp

This must be まだ (not yet) 探していない, the negative ている form of 探す, to search. But 探していない means “aren’t searching”, doesn’t it? I’d have thought that with まだ, you’d want “haven’t searched [yet]” - (I can’t figure out what that would be in Japanese, but you know what I mean). Ideas?

Hmm, this is going to stretch my abilities to explain. First of all though, your English interpretation is correct - “place we haven’t searched yet”.

The ている form is used to explain states of things. In this case 探していない is modifying the place, ところ. It is describing the ongoing state of the place as “not searched”, or “has not been searched”.

Combining this with まだ gives you a statement that it is still “not searched”, and hasn’t transformed to the “searched” state.

edited the following paragraph to make it easier to understand!

The equivalent statement in English would be formed with the present perfect, I think (with my shaky knowledge of English grammar!). This article might help more than my ramblings. See especially “already ている” and “ていない yet”, and the associated preceding parts about states. Note their example, which is 開いていない in Japanese and rendered as “not yet opened” in English.

〜ている

[_Marcus]

Brilliant! What a fantastically clear and erudite explanation! Thank you so much @Radish8! You are a star! Thank you!

[Radish8]

I’m not sure it was quite all that, but you’re welcome it was an interesting question to try to answer.

[Phryne]

I’ve got three disjointed sentence bits that I can’t seem to string together comprehensibly:

Page 62

警察官は ずっとみはっていたが、画家が 庭のおちばをホウキで はいたので、ただのたき火だと 思いこんでしまった。

However, a police officer had been standing guard the whole time,
because the painter had swept the fallen leaves of the garden with a broom,
he was convinced that there had been a recent fire.

[Radish8]

Hmm, you’ve got some bits the wrong way round, that’s all.

警察官は ずっとみはっていたが - A police officer had been standing guard the whole time but…

画家が 庭のおちばをホウキで はいたので - because the painter swept the fallen leaves in the garden with a broom - this bit seems fine

ただのたき火だと 思いこんでしまった - he assumed that it was just a bonfire

ただ in this context (the last clause here) means ‘only; merely; just’. The police officer was under the impression that it was just a normal open-air fire for garden refuse, rather than anything suspicious.

I’d note that this doesn’t explain how the police officer failed to notice him burying the case

[Phryne]

O right, I always assumed the positioning of が worked like ので and から, but this makes a lot more sense! Thanks

[Rowena]

The rest of my notes for this week:

p64

p65

p66

p67

[Radish8]

Once you’ve finished the story:

What did you think of this first story?
How are you enjoying the book so far, and how difficult are you finding it? Is it easier than when we started?

[Phryne]

I loved this story. Funny and whimsical (I love the painter’s motivation for doing it!), but also genuinely interesting as a mystery (I for one didn’t crack it on my own, not so perceptive I guess ). As for the difficulty level, I find it’s just right. I can read most things myself, but every page there is one tough nut to crack that keeps things interesting. I have learned so much these past few weeks and it’s been a lot more fun than Genki. An unfortunate side-effect, however, is that Genki II has been gathering dust for 6 weeks… I should really get started on that

I am glad I’ve still got Nyan Nyan 1 to read and I am considering getting the Wan Wan books. I noticed those are a bit older, I hope those are just as good!

[Radish8]

@nienque

I am considering getting the Wan Wan books. I noticed those are a bit older, I hope those are just as good!

I may be forming some plans around doggy detectives and actually I have had a look through and it seems good. The text is more dense - maybe 50% more per page? - but we can compensate by reading fewer pages. It’s just a bit more intimidating. The art is less settled, but it’s kind of more cute in a way ^^

@nienque

I love the painter’s motivation for doing it!

Yeah that came out of left field!

[Rowena]

@nienque

I for one didn’t crack it on my own, not so perceptive I guess

Neither did I. I completely missed seeing the sometimes-reddish door-sized canvas in several pictures.

Overall, enjoyable, and challenging-but-doable. And the artwork is gorgeous!

The Wan-Wan books seem to be getting hard to get hold of - I used CD Japan’s shopping service to buy 2 of the 3 in the series second-hand (CDJ had one of the series available new).

[_Marcus]

@Radish8

Once you’ve finished the story:

Still got a long way to go! It’s been a busy week!

But yes, I love these books. Okay, they are too difficult for me (you know, if I had a student studying English, I’d tell them that the last thing they should do is grab a dictionary and a book that is way, way above their level and just go for it. It’s a totally nutty method of learning. And yet that’s all I’ve done for the past couple of years!) but picking my way through the pages is good fun, and reading it along with the group, even more so. Thank you everyone!

but..... (off topic)

However, I’m afraid I have to stop reading at the end of this week’s section. I was hoping to make it with you all to the end of the second story, but I’m starting Gundam Aggressor in January and I must start typing up some pages in advance of that right now. I did a few, but need to do a lot more, just to give myself some leeway. Sorry everyone!

[_Marcus]

Page 64

月にいって, 月の表面を 写生したくて, 宇宙旅行の資金を ためることを 思いついたのだという

月にいって - “go to the moon and” (I’m assuming いって is 行って)
月の表面を - the moon’s surface + object marker
写生したくて, - want to sketch and (したくて = the て-form of したい)
宇宙旅行の資金を - funds for space travel + object marker
ためることを - saving up money + object marker
思いついた - came up with the idea
の - explanation particle
だ - copula
と - quotation particle
いう - say

“He said he came up with the idea of saving up money to fund space travel [because he] wants to go to the moon and sketch the surface”

Questions:

1. why is 言う not in past tense?
2. I added a “because” in my translation… but is there one in the Japanese? I can’t see it?
3. There are three object particles in this sentence…
   edit: no problem! It’s easy!
   want to sketch the moon’s surface を
   saving up money funds for space travel を
   came up with idea saving up money を

Thanks for any light anyone can shed on this! And yes, certainly wasn’t expecting this as the motive!

[Rowena]

@marcusp

but… (off topic)

That’s not really off topic - you will be sorely missed but good on you for starting so many reading groups!

[Phryne]

There do seem to be eBooks out there, though it’s nicer to have a physical book. I don’t like being stuck with proprietary software to read the eBook.

[Radish8]

@marcusp

月にいって - “go to the moon and” (I’m assuming いって is 行って)

Yes - that threw me as well.

@marcusp

why is 言う not in past tense?

I think you could happily translate it “he says” instead? That’s not much of an answer, sorry…

@marcusp

I added a “because” in my translation… but is there one in the Japanese? I can’t see it?

Not explicitly - it’s more just a string of clauses. However, using て-form to link these can imply a causal relationship, depending on context, so you could throw in a “so” to indicate you did one clause because of the other.

I think a closer English translation would be:

“I wanted to go to the moon and sketch the moon’s surface, so I came up with the idea of gathering funds for the space travel.”

You could even replace the ‘so’ with ‘and’ in English and the context would still give you that subtle hint that those two things are related.

“I wanted to go to the moon and sketch the moon’s surface, and I came up with the idea of gathering funds for the space travel.”

Working backwards through Japanese sentences is often a really good way of parsing them into English, but sometimes it encourages you to prod them into a form they didn’t quite have in the original.

psst, could you blur your English translation? It’s quite a crazy reveal when you first read it, so I don’t want anyone spoiled ^^

@marcusp

But yes, I love these books. Okay, they are too difficult for me

You seem to be reading them fine to me, and often you’re able to help others out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I’m a big believer in lots of smooth easy reading vs a small amount of difficult reading, but I think so long as you’re enjoying the experience enough to keep going and you’re not so overwhelmed by new information that you don’t absorb any of it, it’s still a useful learning experience.

Thank you for taking part! Your comments, questions and answers have been really engaging and thank you again for running the first club and thereby inspiring this one! Really sorry you won’t be able to manage story two with us

@Rowena

Neither did I.

I got that there was a fake door, but I didn’t realise where it had been ‘hidden’. I quite like crime fiction in English, but I’ve literally never worked one out while reading before (I’m in awe of people who actually try!)

@Rowena

The Wan-Wan books seem to be getting hard to get hold of

Yeah, I normally always buy from CDJapan, but I had to get the first one from Amazon. Then a week later it was available on CDJapan again

[_Marcus]

Thank you so much @Radish8! Great answers, very useful! Thank you!

@Radish8

psst, could you blur your English translation? It’s quite a crazy reveal when you first read it, so I don’t want anyone spoiled ^^

Yep, will do, I’ll go back and blur that right now!
Thanks so much again!