Doggy Detectives! Week 3 Discussion 🐶

It’s a totally relevant off-topic though, haha :grin:

off-topic?

I think, honestly, that たら really can mean “if”. There are some cases where the sentence is ambiguous and you could interpret it as either “if” or “when”, particularly without context - such as your “when I have time” example. But that doesn’t mean it can’t be the “if” meaning. Japanese very often uses もし in conjunction with たら to remove this ambiguity (by adding uncertainty to the condition, effectively) and indicate that it really is an “if”.

I don’t think you would get accurate results if you determinedly interpreted every たら as “when”. It depends on the context.

I’ve always assumed that たら comes from the た-form / past tense likewise, and I would be really interested to know the history / evolution of this grammar point. But I’m not sure it’s helpful to focus too much on that rather than the たら form itself.

Take a look through the examples sentences from JT4U, and you’ll see that (a) even if some of them could have been interpreted as “when” with a different context, they’ve clearly been written to mean “if” here, and (b) some of them would be a huge stretch to interpret as “when” at all.

E.g.

大雨だったら、バス旅行は中止になるよ。
If it rains too heavily, the bus excursion will be canceled.

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Seems so:

Scan of DBJG

It also seems from both the many examples and the notes that its meaning changes depending on context, so it can mean when or if.

I had glossed over this bit as I believed I had understood the meaning of the sentence, but as there’s no more reading for the week, I’ve been pleased to learn a bit more thanks to everyone’s discussion of this point today. Cheers!

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Actually, looking at my copy, point (3) over the page seems to settle this fairly conclusively:

“As seen… たら may mean ‘when’ in one case and ‘if’ in another. たら means ‘when’ if S1 is a certainty; if not, たら means ‘if’.”

It also says “もし before S1 makes sentences unambiguous; it always means ‘if S1’.”

Do you know, I literally never think to look at this dictionary, even though every single time I do it’s unbelievably clear and helpful.

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I didn’t want to be scanning and posting the whole section :face_with_hand_over_mouth:, but yes, Note 3 makes it clear.

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I never thought I’d enjoy discussing たら so much lol, but I’ve learned stuff today so thanks everyone! :blush:

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Ditto.

If it weren’t for the frequency with which Christopher mentions them, I may very well have forgotten I own them (just when I picked them up to look up たら, I thought, “I should move these to where I keep my used-every-day Japanese books!”).

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No, agreed, I thought about that when I saw your post too.

Haha, I too just moved it next to my reading area so that I can actually reach it while reading :grin: I really need to get the intermediate volume at some point.

Same!

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Those who are a bit behind, is there anything we can help with?

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I’ve just caught up but found the last page or two much easier.

Thanks for the discussion.

I often find it easier to post what I think is right and have it critiqued, so may try that with p23 next week.

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Oh that’s good!

And absolutely, do whatever works best for you :blush:

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Hi everyone! Sorry for posting ater 10 days.

My confusion lies with 18th page. There’s a lot that I didn’t get, sorry! If anyone would be willing take the time just to translate question-marked parts, it would be very much appreciated(シ_ _)シ

Let's hide everything here - spoliers??

「あれ、 庭にめんしたガラス戸があいてますよ。 あそこから入ったん
じゃないんですか?」
"Huh, the glass door that’s looking out to the garden is open.
They didn’t enter from there did they?/Did someone enter from there?/I’m not sure, I didn’t even think じゃない and です can be in one sentence together like that""

「いゃ、 入れなぃ。 たしかにガラス戸はあいていたがヽ外に泥棒ょけての鉄ごうしがついているんだ。 」
No, no one was let in(?who’s the subject here?). It’s true that the glass dor is opened, but there is a thief pretection iron fence/lattice attached(?)
Weird fact: first time around I read “grille” as in something you grill things on, like a BBQ? Can you even call the device BBQ? so un anyway i was super confused. “How does a grill save you from thieves??”( 〃▽〃)

ちかづいてみると鉄の棒が何本もはまってい。
Approaching, I saw a lot of iron rods fitted in(??)

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No need to apologise! I can take a look at a few bits, but hopefully somebody else will be able to chime in to add more.

They can indeed :slightly_smiling_face: じゃないです is a softer negation that じゃありません. I read this interesting stack exchange post about it a while back, but the basic conclusion was that both are correct.

Your translation looks good to me - the first one (“they didn’t enter from there, did they?”) conveys the negative questioning tone better. To be clear, he does think that’s where someone could have entered, but just like in English, Japanese often states things as questioning whether something is not true.

入れない is the potential form of 入る (negated), so it’s “it’s not possible to enter (from there)”.

:joy: you can indeed call it a bbq.

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That sounds about right:
ちかづいてみると - on drawing near and looking
鉄の棒が - iron poles/bars + が
何本 - I read this as “a number of long thin things” - ie a number of poles
も - also
はまっている - it is fitted with

On drawing near and looking, it is also fitted with a number of iron poles.

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I think actually this is a specific usage here - 何 in front of a [counter] + も means “a large number of X” or “many X”.

Well, it’s probably an extension of its usage to add “emphasis”, but 何[counter]も is definitely a “thing”.

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Thanks for the explanations - @Radish8 @Micki !

Once again I’m amazed at Japanese verbs. With how much can an inflection change a word, the only way of really understanding the verb is in context and having tons of practice and feel for the language. I thought 入れない was 入れる and Jisho says that yes, it is possible.
I mean yeah, there was furigana and I should’ve guessed from that, but it’s really interesting nevertheless///

Edit: in the last sentence of page 20, do I get it right that

Akita’s tree branch grew over to Kaneyama’s garden? If so, why was he mad about it?
秋田さん・の・家・の・木・の・(branch)・が、うち(me)(garden)のびてきた(grow)ので、このまえ(some time ago) もんく(complaint)をいったんです

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Page 20

If so, why was he mad about it?

It is explained by 秋田さん in the 5th sentence on page 22, though generally speaking it is unusual for complaints from neighbours to be taken well.

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Ah, I think you’ve got the subject wrong here - it’s Kaneyama who made a complaint.

And agree re: verbs. To be honest I find that 入る always trips me up like that, so at this point I just have a healthy amount of suspicion every time I see it :grin:

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Grammar fun

The kanji 詞 (し) appears at the end of words related to a word’s function in a sentence. (In English, we call this the “part of speech”). WaniKani teaches this at level 19, so for anyone not there yet, no need to worry about recognizing it beyond this comment. It’s sort of like “noun詞” or “adjective詞” or “verb詞”; it’s just the last kanji/sound in the part-of-speech words.

Movement words are called 動詞 (どうし). You’ll see 動 (どう) in WaniKani once you hit level 12. WaniKani tells us that 動 means “move”, so a 動詞 is the word in a sentence that makes it “move”. This is the “action” in a sentence, and in English we call this the “verb”.

In Japanese, 動詞 (verbs) are one of two types:

The first type is the 他動詞 (たどうし), using the kanji 他 (た). This comes up in WaniKani at level 4, with the meaning “other”. This means 他動詞 represents a word in a sentence that is “other move”, meaning the one causing the movement (the subject) is not the one being moved. Something else is being moved (the object).

If you’ll forgive me using English verbs here, examples of “other move” verbs would be:

  • buy: you don’t buy yourself, you buy some other thing, such as a hat
  • drive: you don’t drive yourself, you drive some other thing, such as a car
  • find: you don’t find yourself (well, not physically), but you find some other thing, such as your wallet

The second type is 自動詞 (じどうし), using the kanji 自 (じ). This comes up in WaniKani at level 5, with the meaning “self”. This means 自動詞 represents a word in a sentence that is “self moving”.

Again, if you’ll forgive my using English words as an example, here are examples of “self move” actions, which are not done to some other object:

  • jump: when you jump, you yourself are the one jumping
  • listen: when you listen, you yourself are the one listening
  • swim: when you swim, you yourself are the one swimming

Let’s apply this to 入る and 入れる now.

入る (はいる) is a 自動詞, a “self-move action”. The one performing the action is marked by the particle が, but if the actor is known by context, it’s often not spoken. The action is “to enter”. If you “enter a building”, you’re the one doing the movement of entering. (You’re not “entering a suitcase into a building”.)

入れる (いれる) is a 他動詞, a “other-move action”. The one performing the action is marked by the particle が, but if the actor is known by context, it’s often not spoken. The object being moved is marked by the particle を. The action is to insert. If you “insert a key”, you are not being inserted into something. A separate object, the key, is being inserted by you (such as into a keyhole).

Looking back at the line from the book, we don’t get much to go on with 「いや、 入れない」. Who’s doing the action (が)? Are they doing the action with something else (を)? Is there a destination of the action (に)?

Unless context says otherwise (I don’t have the book in front of me at the moment), if there’s no object being moved (を) then you are probably looking at a 自動詞 (self-move action).

Since いれる requires something being moved (を), and はいる does not (action performed by self), there’s a good chance that this 入れない is はいれない. (That is to say, はいる + れる + ない.)

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(using the opportunity,thanks everyone for the help with 20th page. It’s all coming togeeeeether)

This is so interesting @ChristopherFritz :0 I had no idea! I mean I kind of had, the transitive/intransitive terms are mentioned a lot, but your explanation of the japanese termins shines a whole new light!

note-taking sounds Particles are hard to get used to xD

(edit: wrote in some words i skipped accidentally)

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I’m not a grammar-y person and struggled soooo much with explanations of transitive and complements and objects and whatnot (trauma from learning French lol, they love grammar and I never even studied English grammar :smirk:).
But when I first came across the Japanese terms @ChristopherFritz described, I was like “ok well I wish someone had just told me that earlier!”

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