Decided to not learn how to write Kanji

[s1212z]

@Jonapedia

What I said, though I have to say I’m slightly surprised: how did your native friends (or just acquaintances? I don’t want to be presumptuous) know it would bottleneck?

Seeing my study methods prior (e.g. WaniKani or just drilling vocab or reading), the consensus was basically it would be a minor miracle if I learned kanji perfectly through just recognition methods alone. The basic reason was that natives themselves make mistakes and even struggle to remember certain kanji.

Perhaps you can attest yourself as someone who learned to draw kanji growing up (and I’ve seen natives do this often, particularly my wife): when they trying to remember a random word or kanji they haven’t encountered in a while, their pointy finger will start to brandish the stroke order in mid air to recall it, and poof it’s back like an old friend. I don’t know the science on muscle memory in regards to kanji drawing but I think we’ve all experienced what muscle memory is in someway in other activities, but I feel it’s almost a way to quicken and enhance our short term memory. Now I’m branding strokes randomly myself bit by bit, for some reason it works.

@Jonapedia

Or rather, perhaps I just don’t really see what you meant about collocations… are you talking about the fact that you might simply recognise the overall look and meaning of a kanji compound, but not be able to identify an old kanji in a new compound?

I’m sure you know this already but just to clarify my post: I suppose a very simple example (maybe not the best) would be something if someone struggled to know 酒 in isolation or in a new word using it never seen before. However reading 酒を飲む or 梅酒, it’s very comfortable to remember to what the kanji/vocab means…then put in broader scenario like a izakaya (life or fiction), now it’s even more super obvious, still not quite mastery though. One could argue, ‘well, we learn the 酒 kanji individually’ but put in with other language distractions or foreign context or new word and now the buffering speed slows down. Or maybe put it next to 西, 尊 or 猶 alongside just learn and haven’t seen 酒 in a long while and then mistakes begin to arise…maybe not the best example, 酒 is fairly well remembered by all but there are many others that fall into this loop of frustration. I find writing cuts the noise of this like you already mentioned above.

I don’t know if I would practice writing alongside WK and see why others in the throws of the SRS don’t want to do it ATM. I’d probably recommend to take the free lunch on the mnemonic system to help reading progress and work backward when you are done to clean up the similar kanji issues and help reading accuracy based on common frequency priority. The platform moves at it’s own pace and order; really, the 1000 most common should be in the first 30 levels but it’s not it would be slog to write alongside it I feel. But I will credit WK in helping learning kanji writing much easier though and the process has alot of similarities as one might expect.

[anon43113135]

@phin

I have a translation job in Japan that requires N1, and I haven’t had to handwrite kanji once. My translation partner is just as bad at handwriting as me.

In my last translation job (also Japan), occasionally I’d have to write down a note for someone when I picked up the phone and they were out of the office. But that would be like once a week, and that was honestly the only time apart from filling out forms that I ever needed to handwrite. That job required N2.

So it depends on the work environment a bit. My current job is 80% remote, so that factors in.

You have the job I am dreaming of
Would you mind sharing what you are doing and what qualifications you needed to get it?

[Yumari-1]

It’s actually so refreshing to come across someone with a down-to-earth view on this subject. I agree with you wholeheartedly.
I remember watching Cure Dolly’s take on the subject, as well as Yuta’s. There are tons of other videos.

But naah, let me learn how to write kanji, how to write all 6.3k of them, ace highest grade of kanken, then learn about twenty flavors of pitch accent, so that I can be more Japanese than Japanese themselves.
Then, being 70yrs old, let me ask myself what was it that I wanted to use my language skill for?

Aaah, reading and translating manga, and speaking in a way that is understood and gets my point across… Hm…

Keep scrolling to find more support for learning how to write kanji if you have enough time

[Chocobits]

@Yumari-1

But naah, let me learn how to write kanji, how to write all 6.3k of them, ace highest grade of kanken, then learn about twenty flavors of pitch accent, so that I can be more Japanese than Japanese themselves.

It’s a trap that people fall into. Competitive language learning. They lose sight of their original goals (doing the things they love in Japanese) and then want to transform into an actual Japanese person, garnering as much street cred as they can within the language learning community, when really all they originally wanted to do was a low-level task like reading and listening to Japanese media.

Don’t get me wrong. Some people are devoting themselves to the language because they have a genuine love for it. The competitive and “better-than-thou” aspect of language learning certainly rears its head a lot though.

[anon43113135]

@Yumari-1

Then, being 70yrs old, let me ask myself what was it that I wanted to use my language skill for?

I agree on this, but there are freaks out there who actually ENJOY writing

Like whatever, just the act of writing itself.

[alo]

@s1212z

when they trying to remember a random word or kanji they haven’t encountered in a while, their pointy finger will start to brandish the stroke order in mid air to recall it,

When I was in China and somebody wasn’t sure they understood something I said, they would literally write the Hanzi in the air. It was an interesting experience.

@s1212z

I don’t know the science on muscle memory in regards to kanji drawing but I think we’ve all experienced what muscle memory is in someway in other activities

I think muscle memory plays a part, but I think it’s also what @Jonapedia said about using different methods to learn something and the differing perspective of that is what enhances the process.

[s1212z]

I think another benefit less mentioned is being able to read a variety of fonts with less issues and certainly being able to read person’s handwriting much easier, the later being very frustrating sometimes but having the practice of the stroke order makes the writing far more recognizable. Hand written brush strokes are just different to look at though with a alot more variety than imitation fonts but I know practice writing is helping.

[WaniTsunami]

It’s good to know if you live in Japan because you will have to write some information to get by (name, address, and other things I can’t think of atm). If you are just visiting or want to consume japanese media it’s not important.

[MidnightSkies38]

This, basically. If you don’t really need to learn how to write kanji and don’t really want to, then don’t worry about learning how to write kanji. You could spend that time doing other learning that is more relevant to you, and a lack of strong motivation means you have less of a chance of enjoying it or committing to it anyway.

I myself am just interested in learning to read Japanese text, whether it be in a video game, manga, subtitles for a Japanese anime, a comic that some Japanese fan artist uploaded on the internet, etc. Would it be cool to know how to whip out kanji on paper? Sure. Would I have that much use for it to make it worth the effort? I’m guessing probably not. Like I said, I may dabble with writing kanji if I get curious enough or if I find that writing a kanji a few times helps me remember/recognize it, but that’s about it. Since I don’t live or work in Japan, if I were to communicate with someone in written Japanese, chances are I’d be doing it via typing. In the case of Cure Dolly’s grammar videos, she does have example sentences that use kanji and I do make handwritten notes and copy said sentences, but I just wing the stroke order. As long as it looks like the kanji it’s supposed to be, I don’t really care if I wrote it “properly.” I’ve never really understood why correct stroke order is stressed as much as it is.

@Chocobits

It’s a trap that people fall into. Competitive language learning. They lose sight of their original goals (doing the things they love in Japanese) and then want to transform into an actual Japanese person, garnering as much street cred as they can within the language learning community, when really all they originally wanted to do was a low-level task like reading and listening to Japanese media.

Lol I feel like I have barely enough time to fit in WaniKani and Cure Dolly videos just as a means of learning to read, I don’t have time for any of that competitive nonsense.
…Might also help that I’m doing Japanese solo, so it’s not like I really have anyone in particular to compete with anyway.

[phin]

Translating mobile games for a company in Tokyo! When they hired me, they put me and another new guy on the English translation of a game that had been out for a year, and he and I basically focused on just that, translating the entire thing and only doing small side assignments when we had time, having our supervisor just check the end result. I actually had my last day yesterday, switching to a translation/interpretation role for a game company in the US.

Qualifications were N1, some (very little) experience translating games freelance, 2.5 years of translating and interpreting as a CIR on the JET Program, JET translation/interpretation course, 3 years teaching English in Japan as an ALT on the JET Program, and an English degree which included 2 years of Japanese and a 6 month study abroad.

Had to pass a translation test after the second
first interview to get the second. (Character profile/abilities etc. plus a dialogue from the main story). Interviews in Japanese.

For the new job, they gave me a translation test which was mostly emails, and an interpretation test using a transcript from a media interview with their company. Interviews half in Japanese, half in English.

I think having good communication skills on top of the base technical requirements is very helpful.

Hope some of that info is helpful just to get an idea! How’s your job search/self development going? I hope you get to be in a position you love!

[anon43113135]

Thank you! That is really helpful.

I realized I want to do translations. I might not be qualified enough to do something high end but I found some job descriptions I could apply for already.
The idea was to just apply and let them tell me where I need to improve

(German, not English)

How did you like working as a CIR?

[Jonapedia]

@s1212z

when they trying to remember a random word or kanji they haven’t encountered in a while, their pointy finger will start to brandish the stroke order in mid air to recall it, and poof it’s back like an old friend.

Yeah, I do it too, especially if I want to recall something quickly. I also learn new kanji by writing them out with my finger (and sometimes on paper, if I feel like it).

@s1212z

I suppose a very simple example (maybe not the best) would be something if someone struggled to know 酒 in isolation or in a new word using it never seen before.

Ah, OK, I see what you mean. Yes, being able to recognise something in the context of known words doesn’t mean you’ll recognise it without those cues.

@s1212z

I don’t know if I would practice writing alongside WK and see why others in the throws of the SRS don’t want to do it ATM.

Yeah, I guess… I’d say that the one case in which I’ve found writing consistently helpful (not just for myself, but for others based on their feedback) is when it comes to similar-looking kanji. For example, some people feel that 先 and 失 are similar, but knowing how to write them would reveal differences in stroke order, and also would force one to remember the difference between 乚 and ㇏ beyond the fact that one of them is just a little more bent.

@anon43113135

@Yumari-1

Then, being 70yrs old, let me ask myself what was it that I wanted to use my language skill for?

I agree on this, but there are freaks out there who actually ENJOY writing

Well, I happen to be one of them. It helps when you’ve learnt calligraphy, because that means you can actually aim to have an aesthetically pleasing result, which can be satisfying in and of itself.

Also, @Yumari-1, while I get your point and @Kinozato’s, and I know ‘70 years old’ is almost definitely tongue-in-cheek, I think there’s a massive overestimation going on here regarding the amount of time actually needed to learn how to write. I’m a native Chinese speaker, and I’m only 25. Plus, native speakers tend to take a longer total duration to learn their native languages to the same degree of proficiency as non-natives: efugeni (on these forums) passed the Kanken 1, and he said it took him about five years. (For the record, I can’t pass the Kanken 1 right now, and I know it.) The point at which you can easily write common kanji quickly comes waaaaaay before you know enough to attempt the Kanken 1. efugeni also passed the Goken 1 (which is the highest level of the Japanese test for Japanese people) at the end of those five years, if I’m not mistaken. He’s Russian, so it’s not like he had past kanji experience as a leg-up.

Everyone’s free to choose not to learn to write and to use the time saved to study other things, and if that suits your Japanese learning goals, excellent. However, I think that there are clear benefits to doing at least some writing – including increased retention, which is documented in English, never mind languages using ideograms – and I just feel that people are missing out on those benefits if their only reason for avoiding writing altogether is ‘oh, it’ll take too much time’. It does not take as much time as most people seem to think, and anyone who wants to do some writing can set limits on how much time they’ll spend on it anyway. However, if the only acceptable ‘total duration spent on writing’ for your personal goals is absolute zero, well… whatever suits you. Just know that I’ve noticed quite a few people making sudden progress on leeches just because they decided to write the kanji, or even just the reading. In other words, surprisingly, writing can actually save you time.

[anon43113135]

@Jonapedia

He’s Russian, so it’s not like he had past kanji experience as a leg-up.

He could be ハーフ

(@efugeni)

What I hate to admit with this is, that the air is getting thin for non Asians in the written Kanji world.

Btw. who is the female Kanken leader here in Wanikani at the current moment? Seems to be quite a male hobby. (This is a challenge)

[phin]

Seems like a good plan to me!

I liked CIR a lot, but it was pretty stressful at times. That might just be due to all the weird situations I had to interpret for with Corona going on in 2020, people quitting, not be able to come to Japan, and everybody being kind of stressed out.

When a bunch of assignments came in at once from different sources I would be really busy, but other times I had nothing to do and just studied Japanese. Overall I’d say it was fulfilling, but I was pretty burned out by the end.

There’s a huge range of what a CIR job can be, however. What you do as a CIR depends completely on what kind of organization you’re placed with, so one CIR’s experience can be completely different from another’s. Some people have jobs similar to ALTS, others have jobs that are more like your standard government worker, it’s really random.

Good way to get into Japan though, if you’re not already?

[anon43113135]

@phin

Good way to get into Japan though, if you’re not already?

I am here already. But I came with my husband so I don’t know a lot about the teaching and CIR world. On the homepage it says there are CIRs translating to other languages than English, that sounds interesting.

Like you said, I like the idea to have a job that improves my Japanese. I couldn’t both work and learn because of family and realistically it is a life long learning situation, at least for me It’s also fun.

Coming here during the pandemic sounds quite tough! All the changing regulations must have been really stressful to keep up with. I couldn’t even remember which kind of semi lockdown currently was

[Kinozato]

I disagree but as we both have said, to each their own.

[Leebo]

@Kinozato

to each their own.

But if “their own” is “learning to write” then they’re wasting their time.

It’s fine, it’s fine… I’ll make up for it by erasing how to write from my memory!

[Kinozato]

Lol people shouldn’t make a big deal about this. Some find it useful to learn how to hand write kanji and some don’t. It doesn’t mean what you do is wrong.

I just gave my honest opinion in that it is a waste of time for me, that’s all! Some people agree with me and others don’t

[Leebo]

I get what you’re saying and I wasn’t taking it personally.

I just feel like if someone made a thread like “Hey guys I’m thinking about taking up running” there wouldn’t be people coming into that thread to be like “Hey, there’s cars now, we don’t need to run everywhere we go anymore” but kanji writing threads attract negativity for whatever reason.

I realize this thread started from the opposite POV, and so it kind of welcomed that take, but I just mean generally.

[Kinozato]

But that’s different. Can’t really compare the two because a sedentary life has been proven to have negative effects in the long run.

I don’t think it’s so much about the negativity as it is about the hype that many people give it. Learners should focus on learning to read kanji and speak. Then they have to focus on pitch accent. Japanese is a massive undertaken already.

Worrying about writing kanji is just tacking on something that shouldn’t be there in the first place for the average learner.