An argument for AJATT


#21

I don’t know about TOEIC (English isn’t my first language, but learnt it since a kid), but 985/990 sounds awesome!

Exactly. I’ve talked to a few people on HelloTalk and none of them correct me. I think they’re worried about being rude…
I can also see how they might not wanna bother to do so. Like I can imagine if someone learnt my first language and said something slightly wrong. I wouldn’t bother to correct him/her and just be like, “ya, they meant that.”


#22

I do think it’s that people worry about being rude. If I’m talking to someone who speaks English fluently, it would seem pretty unnecessary to me to correct them if I noticed a small mistake or weirdness that they made. They haven’t asked me to correct their English, they live and work in the UK, speak it fluently… I assume they don’t want me to interrupt them and deliver a language lesson :stuck_out_tongue: it’s different for a language partner of course, but delivering feedback is actually kind of scary to a lot of people - we don’t really teach how to do it well.


#23

Do it first and give some suggestions on how they can improve it :slight_smile: Teach but be nice, and they’ll give back to you right away. I have no language partners that don’t correct my Japanese. I have around 7 good JP friends.


#24

Mostly I worry that there’s a tendency to slag old stuff without recognizing the contributions they actually gave.

“AJATT is just immersion and immersion is obvious!”
Well, it wasn’t always obvious, at least among Americans learning Japanese. It’s obviois now, but I think AJATT actually contributed to the idea of immersion being more widespread in this little english-speaking japanese-learning community. Doesn’t mean anyone here was introduced to the concept through AJATT directly, but it helped spread the idea.

“Heisig is just mnemonics to learn the kanji and that’s obvious and Wanikani does it better!”
Well, yeah. But when Heisig wrote his book most English speakers were brute-forcing rote memorization of the kanji and his approach was really novel. It’s still novel. When I tell people in my personal life that I use mnemonics for the kanji, I get blank looks. Just because I would never use the book now (and, concidentally, I find the heisig-popularizing website kanji.koohii a bit toxic), doesn’t mean Heisig’s contribution wasn’t invaluable.

So that’s my take.

Edit: Uh, for the record, I’m not equating the magnitude of those two contributions with each other. Heisig’s was drastically greater.


#25

I did some AGATT and AEATT as a child, It worked pretty well.


#26

That’s what the piece of paper says. But again, it’s just filling some circles in.
It does not transfer to actual skills (in my case at least).
Same for JLPT.

I also agree. Plus a bit of laziness.
I really noticed when my spouse tried to learn my first language. Often, they would use awkward grammatical structures, but I would not be able to think of a better way to say that on the spot. When they did press me to correct them, I had to basically change everything, which takes a lot of mental resources. You have to basically get the essence of what they want to say, and then express that naturally…
Plus, if the meaning is otherwise clear, and the conversation is flowing, well, like @Radish8 said, I definitely would not interrupt.

That’s a bit different, since you are specifically interacting with the goal of helping each other…


#27

khatzumoto still scamming the everliving shit out of people, in 2018? thought he disappeared some time around 2014, without refunding hundreds of people, despite his “fo shizzle guarantee”

kind of made my day now.


#28

I don’t disagree with what you say here, but I don’t think it really qualifies as AJATT at that point. What you’re doing sounds like immersion. AJATT is just immersion taken to nutty levels.


#29

Well, they did specifically mention Hellotalk. What else is it for? Dating? :rofl:


#30

デートだろ。他になにか?w


#31

I don’t know, I don’t use it.
Isn’t it a place to ask questions?
In that case, that’s indeed helping each other, but not by correcting what the person is saying.
(Nothing prevents you from doing it I guess, but you are back to the original problem)


#32

You literally have a tool to correct your partner’s mistakes:

Technology, right??? :eyes:

Hellotalk works like any social media platform. People can post pictures or whatever they want, ranging from 今日は素敵な日です! to longer texts. Anything. Japanese people use it a little like Twitter. In my case, my target language is Japanese and I’m teaching both Portuguese and English. This means that I’ll be able to see posts from people that know Japanese and are learning either EN or PT. I can comment, like and message them if I want. Inside the chat, that’s where I can actually do corrections (see screenshot above).

The place to ask questions is HiNative (the new version of Lang-8, but different).


#33

Looks neat! I should probably give it a go.

Well, it’s the second time today I feel like I’ve been living under a rock. :woman_shrugging:


#34

And it has a bunch of other features related to privacy that might interest you (no mentioning gender or age, making sure that only a certain age gap is able to find you, making sure that only natives from your target language can find you and message you, etc).

You can also do voice and I think video? Not sure, haven’t tried the latter. I somehow see it being useful to you in 2 specific cases:

  • If you find someone with a high level of the language you’re teaching. This way, both of you can be exigent with each other because you both want to perfect your language skills.
  • If you find someone that is a beginner in the language you’re teaching. This completely forces you to chat about harder, more detailed subjects in your target language (assuming Japanese). Why? Because there’s no way the other person would be able to understand those topics as a beginner. You have to use Japanese for those situations.

Another thing is that you can also get corrections in your posts (not just private/group chat). So for example, you might want to write a detailed text about something and ask people to correct you.

Here, have fun xD

The 2 top rows were recommended by @gojarappe. They work pretty much like games. Apparently Mr. Goja was addicted to them :v:


(Sorry for derailing guys… D:::: )


#35

What happens if you do? Does the AJATT police come arrest you and take your AJATT badge away? With any resource you get to choose how much of it to adopt and how much of it you want to put into your life. It’s never all or nothing. Because I use a lot of their structure, I will still call it AJATT and not ‘immersion’, because, they do give a lot of tips and tricks to how to do this. You definitely won’t be getting the same resources if you google ‘immersion’ vs. ‘AJATT’ which is why I chose to use the latter.


#36

I respectfully disagree. I believe you can use AJATT as little as you want, and AJATT is just the mindset of trying to get as much in as possible (and other tricks like using anki). What ‘qualifies as AJATT’ is not anyone’s ultimate objective when learning Japanese, so why does it matter? I did learn a lot of my immersion techniques from AJATT websites though, so I will still call it that.


#37

i’ve never paid a cent to him, just for the record. A lot of stuff there is free. And there are also other AJATT-inspired blogs/websites to get additional resources from.


#38

Being married to someone who doesn’t speak your native language at a native level does give you some insight into the process of language learning. I’ve been married for over 25 years, and my wife, who’s Japanese, had a pretty good English background when we met, though her ability to express herself was limited, because she was a young adult who had taken English in school but didn’t have much practice speaking it. (Meanwhile the only Japanese phrase I knew was 今何時?)

Living in Canada, she soon picked up a good ability to speak English to anyone, but I’ve noticed that in the last five years her fluency level has increased quite a bit, to nearly native level, but even so, she’ll make mistakes on things that don’t exist in her language, like adding an unnecessary or wrong the sometimes, or getting the gender of pronouns mixed up. (Like she’ll try to say “his mother” and it comes out as “her mother” because “mother” is feminine which trips her up.)

My point is that seeing what a long journey it is to master a language illustrates how difficult a task it is, and should maybe give us a little forgiveness for our own troubles with speaking a second language properly.

For the record, I feel like in almost every Japanese sentence I say, if it’s any more complicated than お腹すいたな, I’m probably making one or two grammatical errors. But we do our best, and communication is the main thing after all.


#39

Do you consider that the old AJATT website has much to offer still in comparision with similar and newer ones? like JALUP, MIA (still very much a WIP), BritvsJapan or even CureDolly’s website and Youtube series…

There’re a lot of posts about the right mentality for learning, but I think that the information and the practical approach is better explained in the newer websites.

For me, after reading many of Katz posts, I don’t find much value in the AJATT website anymore :man_shrugging: … That been said the MIA website probably will end up been the updated AJATT (cult mentality included). Lots of nice resources comming from those guys though…:+1:


#40

I’ve only been using HelloTalk for a few days now, and I’m definitely still on the beginner end for my grammar. However I quickly learned to imitate some of the English learners… They put on their profile, the posts, pretty much everything. “please correct my sentences” (or even “Please teach my words”). By doing so, I have been getting A LOT of feedback and learning from it quite a bit.