[aDoBJG] K 💮 A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar

かい

No luck finding this one in my Tokyo Joshi Pro Wrestling translations, but it might be less common in this setting because they’re women wrestlers, haha.

Note 4 says that questions in female informal speech can be formed by dropping かい in male informal questions and using rising intonation. I didn’t get the impression that this was particularly gendered, but I’ve definitely seen this many times before!

I have billions of examples of this, but here's one from some backstage comments that I thought were particularly funny. This is after Kamiyu (Yuki Kamifuku) and Mahiro Kiryu lost their tag team tournament match against Moka Miyamoto and Juria Nagano on 2023.01.15:

Hard mode: here’s the video.

上福「何やってんだよー!」

Kamifuku: “What the hell are you doing?”

桐生「ホントすみませんでした…」

Kiryu: “I’m so sorry…”

上福「お前! せっかくトーナメント始まったのに、何やってんだよ。あんなウルトラの母みたいな髪型してるやつに負けちゃって。ねー、どうして!(しばし間を空けて)…言い過ぎたよ。嘘だよ」

Kamifuku: “Hey! The tournament just started—What the hell is this? You lost to a woman with a hairstyle that looks like the Mother of Ultra, huh? WHY!” (brief pause) “…I went too far, didn’t I? Hey, I’m just kidding.”

桐生「いやでもホントに…」

Kiryu: “No, but I’m really…”

上福「負ける時ってたまにあんじゃん。ゆきだって負ける時あんじゃん。何か食べたいものある?」

Kamifuku: “Sometimes you just lose. I lose sometimes, too. Do you want to go get something to eat?”

桐生「か、かに…」

Kiryu: “C-crab…”

上福「カニ?」

Kamifuku: “Crab?”

桐生「カニ玉…」

Kiryu: “Crab omelet…”

上福「安いな。いこう」

Kamifuku: “Well, it’s cheap. Let’s go.”

かもしれない

This one took me a long, long time to learn at first because there sure are a lot of syllables you have to remember :sweat_smile:. It doesn’t really cause me trouble anymore, though.

Tofugu has a great article on Japanese expressions for different levels of uncertainty, which covers the three listed under related expressions I plus a whole bunch more.

Here’s from that article:

〜かもしれない is the Japanese equivalent of “may” or “might.” It communicates the implication that something may be true, but you’re not completely sure. In other words, it refers to your guess when there is no concrete proof to support it.

Let’s use the same scenario of you sneezing. Instead of “you wonder,” you think you might have a cold. In this case, you can use 〜かもしれない and say:

風邪かもしれない。
I might have a cold.

Here, 〜かもしれない shows that even if you suspect that you might have a cold, you aren’t so sure. If you’re very certain that your sneeze is being caused by a cold, you shouldn’t use 〜かもしれない.

Note that 〜かもしれない is often shortened to just 〜かも in casual conversation, or in self-directed speech. So if you now have some chills and are telling your family member that you might develop a fever, it’s common to drop しれない and say:

熱が出るかも。
I may develop a fever.

Although it is grammatically incorrect, some people use 〜かも with です to lend a sense of casual politeness. So if you’re telling one of your superiors at work that you’re friendly with that you might get a fever, you could say:

熱が出るかもです。
I may develop a fever.

However, you would use the proper polite form, 〜かもしれません, if you were speaking to another senior employee with whom you have a stiff, square relationship.

熱が出るかもしれません。
I may develop a fever.

I have another example from Kamiyu that's pretty funny, haha. This is from her comments after losing to Janai Kai in TJPW's first show in America on 2023.03.31:

Hard mode: here’s the video.

上福「せっかくロスまで来たのに…もしかしたら、ゆきの大好きなザック・エフロンもどこかで見てるかもしれないのに、あんなナチュラルメイクの女の子に負けてめちゃくちゃ悔しいんだけど。一個見つけたのが、あの人裸足で試合やってるんですけど、ネイルがシンプルすぎてし、ジェルネイルじゃなくてポリッシュでやってるから。いつか日本に来た時はネイルサロンに連れて行ってやるから。覚悟して、一緒にネイルサロンにいこう。バイバイ」

Kamifuku: “Even though I came all this way to L.A., even though my beloved Zac Efron might be watching, I lost to a girl with natural makeup. Mortifying. Something I noticed is that she wrestles barefoot, but her nails are too simple, and she uses polish instead of gel nails. Someday, when she comes to Japan, I’ll take her to a nail salon. Prepare yourself, and let’s go to the nail salon together.” (in English) “Bye bye.”

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Week 11 is here with から3 to きらいだ, 7 entries this week.

This is only the official notice of week 11 starting. Nothing special, feel free to discuss any K entries at any time. :slight_smile:

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から

When I first learned から 2 and から 3, I despaired at having to keep their meanings straight, but I realized when reading the entries today that I don’t think this has caused me trouble in a long time, so I guess I managed to figure it out!

Here’s an example from Tokyo Joshi Pro Wrestling that contains both:

This is from the Korakuen Hall show on May 5 after Mizuki successfully defended her title against Sawyer Wreck, then had Maki Itoh come out to challenge for it next:

This is from the closing promo in the show, not the post-match comments, so I can’t link the video, sorry!

瑞希「でも私がこうやって言葉を強く発そうって思えるようになったのも伊藤さんがいたからで。でも私トーナメントで初めて伊藤さんに負けてから、絶対勝ちたいって、この人には負けたくないってあらためてそう思ったので。まだまだタッグのベルトも、シングルのベルトも守っていくので。みなさん暑い夏一緒に過ごしましょう!」

Mizuki: “It was thanks to Itoh-san that I became able to use strong words like this. Ever since losing to her for the first time in the tournament, I’ve thought that I absolutely have to win, and I don’t want to lose to her. I’m going to keep defending the tag belt and the singles belt, too. Let’s spend the hot summer together!”

For から 1, I’ll share an example from Pro Wrestling NOAH to try to spice things up, haha. This use of から has come up a lot for Go Shiozaki and Katsuhiko Nakajima’s newly reunited tag team, AXIZ, because they’re very focused on what’s coming next for them after taking a bit to really find their footing as a team again.

This is from May 21, when they picked up their first win as a tag team after coming back:

Hard mode: here’s the video. The transcription of the Japanese and the English translation are the official ones provided by the company.

中嶋勝彦「見ての通り、AXIZ、日に日に調子が上がってきているよ。ねえ、豪さん?」

Katsuhiko Nakajima: "As you can see, AXIZ is getting better day by day.”

潮崎豪「そうだね。いや、本当に俺の負けが続いてたからね。ここから、これから、今日この時からAXIZは飛び立っていきますよ」

Go Shiozaki: "Yes, I’ve really been losing a lot, but from here, from today, AXIZ is going to take off.”

中嶋勝彦「AXIZ、俺たちを見逃すな」

Katsuhiko Nakajima: "AXIZ, don’t miss us.”

At first I thought of these three uses of から as pretty distinct, but I don’t feel that they’re so different anymore, conceptually, at least. Interestingly, the English word “since” also works for all three meanings (though it isn’t a good gloss for all possible uses), so I think we sort of have a similar concept, too.

The note in から 1 is a good one to remember. It says that から basically indicates a temporal or spacial starting point or a source. A source can be a person, material, a cause, or a reason.

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Page 192, かしら, Note 3: “Sfml かしら is acceptable if the situation is very formal”.
Got a bit confused with what “Sfml” is but I think I figured it out, so just in case it can help someone else, I think it means “Sentence formal” (like Sinf is the Sentence at the infinite tense)

@Twelvewishes, looking forward to the Bunpro links, if you’re willing to continue finding them :smiley: otherwise I can help with that :slight_smile:

&Last comment on this week’s reading, after the great quote recently about “you can’t really emphasize with a dead person”, this week is bringing us a completely unrealistic sentence 私はチーズがきらいだ. Well at least I can’t relate at all, maybe some people can :sweat_smile:

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I’ll be too busy to read new grammar on the weekend, so they’ll be updated on Monday at the earliest. I don’t mind if someone does it first, looking for links between material and finding other sources is fun and I don’t want to deprive anyone of that if they want to do it themselves.

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かしら

As I mentioned in a previous thread for this club, I’ve only seen one example of this in my wrestling translations so far!

Here it is, courtesy of Sakisama:

方

I have kind of a funny example of getting confused by this one recently, haha. Generally I don’t feel like I have any trouble with it, but I totally got tricked by this tweet:

今となっては見る方の感じ方でいろんな感情に陥ると思いま(ス)!

This tweet was from the producer of a wrestling photobook who was responding to a fan’s impression of a photo at the end of the book, which seemed to foreshadow the wrestlers reuniting almost three years later (the initial breakup happened almost immediately after the photobook came out).

I was totally confused by “見る方の感じ方” at first because I didn’t notice that 見る方 wasn’t that same Vます 方 pattern, so I was trying to read it as like: “way of viewing’s way of feeling” which just plain doesn’t make sense, haha. But I believe it’s 方 as in one’s side, so “viewing side”, which basically just means “the viewer”! So “見る方の感じ方” is “the viewer’s way of feeling”, or maybe “viewer’s perception” is a more natural way to translate that, haha.

I also didn’t understand at first how the meaning of 方 as described in the dictionary here could be ambiguous, but I think I puzzled it over enough after reading note 1 that I managed to figure it out :sweat_smile:.

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I think I have to read many more examples, because I still struggle with this one. Thank you for the example sentences! I think I’m right at the cusp of understanding, I’ll puzzle over it some more.

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かわりに

I was actually a bit surprised by this one because I knew the “in place of” and “instead of” meanings, but didn’t know the “to make up for” and “although” or “but” meanings. So examples (c) through (g) were a bit unexpected to me, and the note under related expressions that it can sometimes be replaced by けれど(も) or しかし was a surprise!

I got curious if I’d seen any of those other meanings in my Tokyo Joshi Pro Wrestling translations, but after a quick search, it looks like the answer is no. There weren’t a whole lot of instances of 代わり (all of them were spelled with the kanji), but all of them were along the lines of examples (a) or (b).

Here's one particularly notable instance, when Pom Harajuku had to step up and take Raku's place very last-minute in a tag team championship match that Raku was unable to take part in. This is from the 2022.11.24 contract signing a couple days before the title match:

Here’s the transcript of the whole contract signing for context, and the video (timestamped at the below part). Good luck listening, though, because Pom is crying throughout the whole thing :sweat_smile:.

ぽむ「(泣)らくさんとユキさんが2人で頑張って挑戦するのを知ってて。すごく仲良しなんですけど、ユキさんはユキさんはぽむと仲良しで組んでて、うちが一緒にいっていいのかなって悩んでくれたと思うし、らくさんもぽむのことを考えてくれたりしたと思うし、ぽむは2人がそうやってぽむのことを考えてくれたりして、ベルトに挑戦しますってなって2人が巻いているところを見たかったし、ここにらくさんにいて欲しかったんですよ。でもこうやって代わりにぽむがいるからには、獲ってベルトを三等分にして巻きたいです~(泣)。ぽむが一番悔しいんですよ、ここにらくさんがいないことが!(泣)」

Pom: (crying) “I know that Raku-san and Yuki-san were working hard together to challenge. They’re very close, but Yuki-san and I are also close, and I think she was worried about whether it was okay for them to team together without me, and I think Raku-san was also thinking about me, and I was also thinking about the two of them, and I’m challenging for the belt that I wanted to see the two of them win, and I wanted Raku-san to be here! But since I’m here instead of her, I want to win the belt and divide it into three parts so that we can all wear it.” (crying) “That’s what I regret the most, that Raku-san isn’t here!” (crying)

Has anyone else seen instances along the lines of examples (c) through (g) anywhere in the wild?

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~方(かた)

I believe it’s V-stem + 方(かた).

For 勉強(べんきょう)の仕方(しかた), perhaps it is implied that 勉強(べんきょう)し方(かた) can’t be used, since that’s the stem form of 勉強(べんきょう)する; and the sound would be similar to 仕方(しかた) without の.

Then there is also 勉強(べんきょう)の方法(ほうほう). I am more accustomed to this one.

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I get plenty of hits for 代わりに and even more for かわりに in the mangas I have, but they are in pretty short sentences so I can’t see any that fits the description at a glance. I guess it is typical of Japanese, what it “replaces” is probably implied for the context and not necessarily written.
When I get a bit of time I will try to read through the sentences in context and will update you if I find some sentences that I think match the examples (c) through (g)!

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から2: I found the related expression part of this entry confusing. Beyond the syntax and stuff of the first sentence being confusing enough I had to reread the sentence multiple times and basically read it backwards (hello skill I learned for Japanese coming in handy for English :woman_facepalming:).

It says から can be dropped when there is not a high degree of volitional. For commands and such. And then it has a sentence with a command where the から can’t be dropped. The exact opposite of what it just said.

It was only thinking about the heading “related expression” and the last sentence in the section that made me realize what it was trying to do was compare and contrast てから and て (as “and”, I guess). Because the first sentence seemed to me it was discussing when から could be dropped and it would still be understandable as てから, but what it really was saying is when から can be dropped because only て works by itself and から is not necessary.

So yeah, I’m putting this here in case someone else gets confused by this too. This section is not really talking about when から can be omitted, but whether just plain て-form is enough.

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I don’t feel I have seen けども, but of course it exists.

I don’t think much of けれども or しかし when I see かわりに. Also, が2 isn’t mentioned at all.

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Mmm, “can be omitted if the main verb does not indicate a high degree of volitional control on the part of the speaker as in the cases of a strong suggestion, determination or a command” is listing commands etc as examples of when there is a high degree of volition, not as examples of when kara can be omitted, but it could really have benefited from rephrasing to be a bit clearer and less ambiguous…

Doing the contrast of て and てから as if the former was the latter with から dropped struck me as a bit odd too, since that isn’t what’s actually happening with て sentences imho.

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I can’t see how the sentence can mean what you say it means. If that was their intention, the sentence is even more broken than I thought. I thought it was bad enough that “if the main verb does not indicate a high degree of volitional control on the part of the speaker” was already a convoluted and hard to understand way to phrase it (don’t add “not” to an already convoluted phrasing and expect anyone to understand it on 1st, 2nd or 3rd read), but if “as in the cases of a strong suggestion, determination or a command” only connects to “a high degree of volitional control”, then I give up.

That sentence does not mean what it thinks it means.

I’m not even sure it is worth it for me to go back and figure it out. To see if I can see what you’re saying is in that convoluted sentence. Because figuring out if から can be omitted and instead be just て when it isn’t actually about から being omitted, but just another way to phrase it…

Pointless.

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Well, I don’t want to defend what is definitely a pretty over-complicated sentence structure, but I didn’t get confused by it on first reading and I don’t think it’s actually grammatically wrong for what it’s trying to say. I think it helps a lot if you already know that suggestions, commands, etc are volitional, because then you know from the meaning that the as-clause must be attaching there and not elsewhere.

I think the text under the examples explains it a bit better – てから is about chronological order and volitional planning; so if you’re just expressing a “first this then that” sequence て is another way to phrase it. But if there’s a command, suggestion or expression of will then て doesn’t work, because it doesn’t state a strong enough link between the two parts of the sentence.

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Yeah, I was a bit confused by that related expression note at first as well, but it made more sense to me when I looked at the example sentences and found the ones marked with an * to read really strangely to me, haha. It seemed to me that から is needed there to sort of separate out the actions and clarify them because otherwise it feels like the speaker’s volition is also getting applied to the て verb portion of the sentence, which just doesn’t make sense with those words.

In [1]a for instance, the suggestion/invitation part doesn’t apply to finishing studying; it’s to play tennis together afterward. So it’s using から to mark the jumping off point for when the suggestion occurs: “Starting from when we finish studying, let’s play tennis.” If you don’t have から in there, it’s not clear exactly what the sentence is asking because the て is trying to connect to something else, but there’s nothing for it to connect to.

I think the confusing part is the volitional part, honestly. That keeps throwing a wrench in my own understanding, haha, because there’s a lot of grammar that is only used with volitional verbs, or which can’t be used with volitional verbs, and I don’t really think about things in terms of volition, so it can be hard to remember to take that into account when forming sentences.

For sure they could have worded this one a lot more clearly, though.

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Looks like several folks have already chimed in, but I just wanted to add that I had the same issue with that sentence. I had to reread it a few times and break it into chunks because it. was. not. computing through the first read.

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Here is an example of V + かわりに in the wild (from One Piece), which I think matches the “to make up for it” examples:

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けれども

I don’t feel like I see this one terribly often in pro wrestling. The informal variants are much more common! I also have a tendency not to translate it as “although” because I feel like that can kind of sound stiffer in English :sweat_smile:? It sounds a bit stilted in the context of pro wrestling, at least. So I often translate it as “but” to make the sentence feel more natural. Maybe I should try to use “although” for the more formal, longer form of けれども, though :thinking:? I feel like “although” has a more formal connotation in English, compared to “but.”

Yeah, this surprised me as well! I went back to compare to the が2 entry, and I noticed that it specifies that けれども differs from が in that with けれども, S1 is a subordinate clause and S2 is a main clause, whereas with が, both S1 and S2 are independent clauses.

I definitely learned けど as essentially “plain style が”, though I don’t know how technically correct that is, haha. I looked it up again in Minna no Nihongo, and lesson 20 said: “けど works the same way as が and is often used in conversation”. So that’s slightly different information than what ADoBJG gives, since it connects けど to けれども, which has a slightly different distinction from が.

Then again, I don’t think normal people really make the subordinate/coordinate distinction when picking conjunctions for their sentences, so maybe it’s a case where common usage has sort of ignored what is technically grammatically correct…

There is only one けれども in my Tokyo Joshi Pro Wrestling translations! This is after Wakana Uehara beat her fellow rookie Himawari in a singles match on 2023.02.11:

Hard mode: here’s the video (the part quoted below starts around 0:45). As usual, transcript is from shupro, and the translation is mine and might contain errors.

上原「(デビュー約1カ月での初勝利、長く感じた?)デビューしてからはけっこうすぐだったと思うんですけれども、夢プロレスの企画をきっかけで始めたんですけども、その時にも本当に悔しい思いをして、それでプロレスを続けたいと思ったので、その悔しい過程があるので、それを考えるとちょっと長かったなと思うんですけど、これからまた後輩も増えるので、これから切磋琢磨して頑張っていきたいなっていう風に思います」

(You got your first win about a month after your debut, did it feel like a long time?)

Uehara: “I think it was pretty soon after I debuted, but I started when the Yume Pro Wrestling project began, and I felt a lot of frustration at that time, so I wanted to continue wrestling. So I think there was a period of frustration, and when I think about that, it maybe felt like a long time. But we’re getting more and more juniors, so I think I have to really apply myself and work diligently from now on.”

(There’s a けども in there, too, haha)

The only けれど in my translations is actually in the same Sakisama example I’ve already shared multiple times! So that variation doesn’t appear to be very common in this setting either.

けども is a bit more common! I found 5 uses in my 2023 document, including the one above, and 1 from last year (also from Wakana, actually)

Here's a second example, this time from Saki Akai after she and Yuki Arai lost the tag team titles on 2023.01.04:

Hard mode: here’s the video.

赤井「今回マックス・ジ・インペイラーと、ハイディ選手とやってみて、自分もキャリア9年なんで、いろんな選手とやってきた方なんですけど。あのタイプ初めてで。今回ベルトはなくなったんですけども、新年早々こういう思いをさせてくれてそういう意味では対戦相手には感謝してます。優希ちゃんにこと心配だったんですけど、試合後の目を見て、全然火は消えてないなと思ったんで、新年早々うちらに火を着けさせてくれて、そういう意味では感謝です」

Akai: “Today we faced Max the Impaler and Heidi. In my nine year career, I have fought a lot of different kinds of wrestlers, but this was my first time facing anyone like that. We lost the belts this time, but I’m grateful to our opponents in the sense that they gave us that experience early in the new year. I was worried about Yuki-chan, but after the match, I saw in her eyes that the fire hadn’t gone out at all, so they lit a fire within us at the beginning of the year, and for that I am grateful.”

けど, in contrast, is all over the place, haha. In 2023 alone, there are 495 uses of it in my translation document so far (though a few of those are words that contain けど, like the above examples. The vast, vast majority are just けど, though).

Here are a few けど's from my most recent translation, which is for a show that happened on 2023.05.27. This is from Mahiro Kiryu and Aja Kong's post-match comments:

Hard mode: here’s the video.

アジャ「上福の地元ってことだったので、結果花を持たせる形になってしまいましたけど、私はホントに地元とかどうでもいいので。完全に潰す気でいたんですけどね。なかなか潰れないな。悔しいけど、しょうがない。けど今日は上福の地元っていうのともうひとつ、桐生真弥はザコじゃないってところを見せてもらおうかなと」

Aja: “Since it was Kamifuku’s hometown, I let her have the credit, but I really don’t care about this place. I was going to smash it to bits. But it’s not very destroyed, is it? It’s disappointing, but it can’t be helped. Today, I’m showing you Kamifuku’s hometown and one other thing, which is that Mahiro Kiryu isn’t a weakling.”

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…and a けど ! It’s interesting how the reply starts at the most formal end of the spectrum with けれども and then descends to けども and finally けど, all in the same sentence. (The bit with けれども is also the part that’s most directly contradicting the interviewer, which might also be influencing the choice; the others are more like “x, but y” linking of the speaker’s thoughts.)

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