魔女の宅急便 (Kiki’s Delivery Service) Discussion Thread: Chapter 4

I have a question on page 67 of the blue book.

「ひとり立ちのときわくわくするっていってたのは、どこのどなたさんでしたっけ」

I’m not sure what the どこのどなたさんでした part means. Best guess is that どなた is “who” and it means roughly “where’d that person go?”, referring to the Kiki who was saying she was excited about becoming independent in the previous part of the sentence. Is that even remotely close?

This is exactly correct.

どこ is “where”, of course; どなた is “who”; combine them with の and you get a person of unknown identity and location, who is definitely not yourself or any relation to you because you’re politely calling them 〜さん.

“Who was that person who was so excited to set out on her own?”

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This is not technically correct.
It could specifically be referring to the listener and is a pretty common rhetoric.

For example, if you told me “I’m not hungry” then proceeded to eat all the pies.
どこのだれかさんが「お腹が空いてない」といましたか?
"Who was it who told me they were not hungry (then ate all the pies)?

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I was curious about this too, and I discovered it’s called 語呂合わせ (ごろあわせ)
What’s more, there’s even an article about it on Tofugu, written by Koichi in 2011! :joy: Read and enjoy.

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8月2日 パンツの日 Underwear Day

Well, where I come from we don’t say February 8th, we say “8 in the 2nd” when it comes to my birthday, so I claim 8-2 day, Underwear Day, for my birthday! (even though it isn’t the same day as in Japan) Cause it is fun! (and I found no good ones for my birthday :wink: )

Very fun read!! =D

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Nice article. Using the goroawase generator, 8181 could also mean 売買 (ばいばい) “buying and selling”.
39!

That is awesome! I hadn’t seen this before, and while I got what Sono-san was doing with ハイハイ, I had no idea this was such a pervasive trick! That is so awesome. And so’s this group! I love that we’re not only enjoying this book together, but we’re able to turn it into unique learning opportunities like this. Thank you all!

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OK, this is driving me nuts today. In English stories, the text describing who says something, and the quote of what they said, is generally in the same paragraph. The nonquoted text may come before or after the quote, or even in the middle — in no case is there any ambiguity, because of the paragraph grouping, and the use of a comma instead of a period at the end of the quote.

“You’re quite right, of course,” admitted Pooh.

…or…

Piglet jumped for joy. “Hooray!”

But in Japanese, it appears that a quote must always be a paragraph all by itself. And the text explaining who or what must be in a separate paragraph, which may come before or after it. All this leaves me very confused sometimes as to who’s saying what.

Today, I’m on page 78 (red book), and this exchange begins:

「あたし、悲しいわ。どうして魔女は悪いことをするって決めちゃうの?」
「知らないからだよ。しょうがないよ」
ジジが大人ぶっていいました。
「ほんとうなの、知らないのよね。•••

…and there follows seven more unidentified quotes, so if you screw up the part above, you misunderstand the whole conversation.

Now sure, there are clues: use of あたし in the first line suggests that it’s either Kiki or Sono (who in the line before had just sat down). The third line says that Jiji said something, and from what I’ve seen could refer to either the second or the 4th, but probably the second, which means the 4th is Kiki, and then we alternate between Kiki and Jiji after that (implying that the first line was Kiki rather than Sono).

But jeez — I’m used to Japanese being simpler than English. But this style of writing speech in text makes it all very much harder than it should be. Why can’t they just put the “so-and-so said” in the same paragraph as the quote, so there’s no ambiguity? Yes, I’m whining now. :slight_smile: Thanks for listening.

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But this happens in English novels too. Sometimes people talk back and forth without the text actually specifying who said the dialog. Normally you can tell from context or tone of voice. It’s just that since we’re still learning sometimes we have trouble picking up on these clues. Some are obvious, like あたし as you said, but we can’t expect to catch all of the hints at this point. I agree that it’s frustrating, but it’s just another thing to try to get better at.

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The unlabeled back-and-forths do happen, but they’re always anchored (in both English and Japanese) by a labeled quote. It’s just that in English, the labels are clearly attached to the quotes, and in Japanese they’re not — this is my complaint.

But I know, I know, しょうがないね。 :slight_smile: I just needed to vent a little. I’m over it now!

OK, getting back to specific points of difficulty. I’m doing pages 78-79 today, and there are quite a few, but I’ll try to just pick a couple.

On page 78 (red book), Sono-san has promised that when she can move, she’ll help Kiki think of a good method (to get customers, I think). Kiki responds:

「だいじょうぶよ。今にきっと、わかってもらえるわ」
I have: “It’s OK. Now surely…” わかって I guess means to understand, grasp, follow; and もらえる is to be able to receive/accept, but… what’s it all mean?

Then, the last paragraph on page 79 (red book):

キキは、上の中から出てきたもぐらみたいに、まぶしい目で、ゆっくりとあたりを見まわしました。

I understand most of this, I think, but I’m missing some key bits. What is that もぐら? Is it really “mole”? That’d give me “because of the middle of the above, came out like a mole”?!?

Then in the second half, I get the shining eyes and slowly looking around, but she appears to be looking around at あたり. I can’t find a meaning of あたり that makes any sense as a direct object here. どういう意味ですか。

I think I see what you’re saying now. I don’t think the issue is with whether or not the anchor is in the same paragraph or not. In this book, the text saying which character spoke is always in the following paragraph (when it’s specified), so in that sense it’s consistent. I think the problem you’re having (which again, I’ve also had) has more to do with the sentence ordering in Japanese. Specifically, that the verb is always last.

English:
“Good morning,” said John while waving.

Japanese:
「おはよう」
ジョンが振りながら、言いました。

In English, you always see the “John said” part first, with all the extra side stuff afterwards. So when the speaker is indicated, it’s always immediately after the dialog. Some of the text in this book has a lot of description though, and since verbs are always last, sometimes you’re reading through multiple lines of text (that may mention actions by other characters) before you actually get to what character said the dialog.

One example from the book from shortly before the part you’re talking about (starting at the end of the dialog):
「じょうだんじゃないわよねえ」
キキが赤ちゃんを見に行ったとき、おソノさんがすまなそうにいいました。

It’s talking about Kiki doing something first, but clearly the dialog is by Osono-san, even though it’s mentioned later in the sentence.

I wanted to mention this in case it helps you, but if not I’ll let you move on from your venting now. :slight_smile:

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Don’t worry @jstrout , you’re not alone!

It took me a while to figure this out for myself, but that did make it a lot easier!

Actually the line preceding this quote has Kiki returning to her room, so that makes it highly unlikely to be Osono-san.

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Osono-san realises she was mistaken about people’s reluctance to use a service with the word witch attached to it, but at the same time she feels that if they tried it once, that problem would go away (I’m not 100% sure about the meaning of しめたもの in that sentence but I think that’s the gist.) So I think the good method refers to “how can we get people to look beyond the word witch and try out the delivery service”

This confused me too, but I think she is saying “It’s OK. Now you really understand (what I was trying to tell you about putting the word witch in the business name.)”

One typo and everything goes haywire. 土 not 上.
あたりis 辺り which is nearby/vicinity. It will make a lot more sense now.
Kiki looked around the vicinity slowly, her eyes radiant, like a mole emerged from the ground.

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“I’m certain I’ll be able to figure it out now,” I believe. The 〜もらう indicates that Kiki hopes to receive understanding (from Sono-san, from someone else, from Heaven…).

I’ve fixed one word, which might help this make a tiny bit more sense. :slight_smile:

もぐら is indeed “mole”; Kiki is blinking at the bright outside world like a mole that just poked its head up above ground. I haven’t run into まぶしい目 before, but I suspect that it means “light-blinded eyes” rather than “bright eyes”

あたり is “(in the) neighborhood; neighborhood; vicinity; nearby”: Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary

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(I didn’t see your post before hitting reply, Kyasurin; sorry!)

You know, I think you’re absolutely right and my explanation was wrong. This makes perfect sense. The missing subject threw me off.

I interpreted しめたもの based on the “to tie” / “to fasten” meaning of 締める. So “fastened things”, a.k.a. whatever package being fastened to her broom for delivery. Combined with the explanatory なんだけど at the end, I feel like she’s saying something like “But if they tried it out just once, (they’d see) the items are (just) tied down”.

Does that sound reasonable?

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Wait, I think we’re both wrong! I was also confused by what meaning of しめる was being used in that sentence, and I think it turns out to be the key.

占める can mean “to go well”. Sono is saying that if people would just try Kiki’s delivery service once, they’d see how good it is. (I thought the subject of 試す was Sono and Kiki, but no–it’s the potential customers.)

And Kiki is saying that she’s certain that people will come to understand (that she isn’t going to hex their packages).

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Isn’t もの only used for physical things? If so, I’m not sure you can have 占めたもの, which is why I thought it was 締めたもの, with the explanation I posted right before you.

I agree with the rest of your explanation though.

もの sometimes gets used for non-physical things; for example, 事故は起こる物だ is “accidents will happen”.

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