Zizka's JLPT 4 Studies

Japanese Language Study Logs (Public)
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Yes, this is right. I think they used to publish some lists for the old format tests that went away in 2008 or thereabouts, but they deliberately don’t publish anything for the N tests, and consider themselves free to use anything that in their judgement a candidate at that level “ought to know”.

Most of the places claiming to have vocab and kanji lists track back to a single unofficial but free source, I think. I do know of one other list where somebody did the analysis of a pile of past papers. (Incidentally, past papers are also something the test organisers deliberately don’t provide – you can find them online but these will always derive from illegitimate copies smuggled out of the exam room or otherwise dubiously obtained.)

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So you remember my own past more than I do myself, have I ever been vocal against Google Translation? Because I don’t remember as it was something like 4-5 years ago.

I didn’t check your answer yet as I want to try on my own and compare after.

What struck me the most was how much grammar was to remember. It’s not as abundant as vocab but there’s a lot. I didn’t expect that.

It always hurt my pride that I wasn’t fluent in Japanese back then which is why I resumed my studies (with a vengeance!). Whenever I’m not working, I’m studying. Gonna get this thing down if it’s the last thing I do.

It’s humbling when you’re used to get by with that kind of thing and suddenly hit a wall, taking for granted that it’ll be a walk in the park.

As a funny aside, I remember trying to memorize 80 new words a day in the weeks before leaving for Japan which I forgot by the time I got there :sweat_smile: .

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It’s this one again…

It’s still bugging me…

I’m actually a bit disappointed that this sort of けいご isn’t classified as N3… After all these years, I’m still grubbing around with “the fundamentals”… Trying to master things mainly through input certainly does leave some gaps… :thinking:

お Verb(stem) + ください

*Q: Does ご work equally here for the Verbs that would go with ご in place of お? I’ve kind of been trying to learn words as “sets” together with their respective ご or お so that the “correct” one sounds natural to me ..
A: Yes, you should use either お orご here, whichever is correct…

I think I’m gonna have to try to work through BunPro this year. :nauseated_face:
I’m rather burned out on SRS

I’ve gotten used to N5 polite “please do Verb” BunPro てください
{No お or ご} Verb(てform) + ください
It’s differently constructed… But it’s not fully clear what the difference is. According to BunPro, the おV(stem)ください is a polite imperative; whereas V(て)ください is a polite request…

So, it looks like I need to work through Genki Ch 19, grammar point 2…

Read this IMABI on The Imperative
and
Read this Tofugu on ください

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No no, I don’t remember anything said along those lines…
I harbor guilt of my extreme overuse and undue trust of Google Translate back in the day… And I’m accustomed to getting roasted (more often on the Internet in general than on this forum) for said over-use… And I do still use it a lot!
But I’ve fallen into the habit of sarcastically calling it Almighty Google for my own entertainment…

This is me, too. Plus always with my headphones in, listening to various levels of native Japanese…
…I guess it’s clear that I’m really chafed about my performance on the N3… I’m really used to passing any test without barely studying…
…So, yes, it may be “pride”… But it’s actually more that I want to speak and understand and read whatever I want in Japanese… And, ideally, to use the correct level of formality and vocabulary and phrasing with the intended ニュアンス in my dealings in Japan.

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They have exactly the same meaning (politely making a request using a structure that is technically an imperative verb form); it’s just that one is keigo and thus is expressing the “you are of higher status than me” relationship more strongly. In this particular question the keigo form is needed because the whole rest of the sentence is using keigo, so it would be a weird mismatch not to also use it here.

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5. 誰が相手 __ 、どんなこと __ 、彼は納得させてしまう。
ても/ても
など/など
でも/でも
なら/なら

So I discussed this one with my teacher and thought it was quite hard. For me, this sentence is one of the hardest so far with the sofa on the couch one and the water bucket one.

6. 隠れるところがない _______ ！
じゃないが
じゃないかな
じゃないかしら
じゃないか

隠れる: かく・れる：to hide, ichidan, intransitive.

ところが: Even so, However, Even though, But; (Bunpro).

…

@Shannon-8 What would you say for this one?

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You didn’t ask me, but I think here the ところ is normal ところ(所) with a が particle attached to make it the subject of the sentence.

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  1. 隠れるところがない _______ ！
    じゃないが
    じゃないかな
    じゃないかしら
    じゃないか

(11am and I just woke up… I’m not adjusting time zones back very smoothly :sweat_smile:)

Initial thoughts (with no support, as though I were in the exam)
…隠れる… This kanji made me think “hiding in the shadows”, but I could not pull the correct reading out of my brain…I got stuck on かげ (like 陰 shadow, nb different Kanji) (or かぶ or かぐ or かく dunno why)
… This ところ doesn’t feel like something that “just happened” or “happened completely”… So it likely has the moreusual meaning of “place” (in time or physically)
… And, as downtimes noted (though I tried not to “peek”), the れる makes it seem more like “be hidden”/intransitive
…Nb. using える sound as a marker for intransitivity doesn’t always work, but it doesn’t totally suck… But on these tests, they like to put in the “edge cases” to see who really knows… So I always get stuck inanalysis paralysis with such Rules of Thumb…
… So at first, the existing question seems to read To be hidden – place – there isn’t
… So I would expect the ___ to be something along the lines of *so , alternate place to attempt to make (thing to hide) able to “blend in/hide in plain sight”…
…I was surprised to see that all for of the suggested endings were forms of further negative language! But on the test, with no real time or resources for analysis, I would select the first, simply because I was feeling a がhowever…

Below is my rambling thought and research regarding this question.

Back in the day (not because of Dana Carvey’s President Bush imitation “wouldn’t be prudent”) comedians would say something expected, and then negate the entire thing by saying “Not!” afterwards.
… For example, “Of course I will pay you back right away. …Not!”
… And that’s what reading a sentence and then coming across じゃない at the end does in my brain.
“Everything I just told you–Not!”
Which, for an interpretation, makes me put “It’s not that…” at the beginning, thus

Now, I think the question so far says
It’s not that there was no place to be hidden…
…が …however
…かな …perhaps
…かしら …perhaps
…か … Question (“..is it?” , or if embedded, “whether or not”)

That ↑was all from my head
Now for the real research…

…BunPro on かしら sentence-ending particle meaning “I wonder if…”
…BunPro on かな sentence-ending particle meaning “I wonder if…”
…BunPro Instagram on かしら vs かな merely calls かな more feminine, but in the かな card, notes that nowadays, all genders seen to useかな
… So I don’t yet see a distinction between these two “I wonder if…” Sentence-ending particles.
…Tofugu Guide to かな Are on two notable pieces of information:
a. かな is that question particleか together with a hopeful possibility, the wish particleな or なぁぁ … Useful in talking to oneself.
b. かな is a casual particle, so use it with plain form Verbs. Nb. じゃない is “casual/plain” ↑√
c. I guess another point from the Tofugu (which I don’t think it’s relevant here) is that, like が, leaving かな dangling at the end of a question/issue invites suggestions, eg from salespeople…
…Lorenzi on 隠れる (かくれる to hide, to conceal oneself; to be out of sight, disappear; to be undiscovered; to live in seclusion N3 Anime Top 2K (!!) WK27 "to hide oneself, to hide, to be hidden “隠hide25”)

Here’s another but from the Tofugu article on かな

Expressing Hope
Going on with the theme of “doubt,” you can also make it into “hope” with the help of a different grammar construction. If you’ve got any experience with Japanese hypotheticals and expressions of necessity, you’ll know they can be a bit weird: generally they take the negative form even if the translated meaning is positive. That’s the case here with hoping. So, make the ending negative with ~ない add かな on the end and you’re set!

…Now I’m thinking that the context of the sentence is, like a desperate sleuth sneaking around in a room looking for clues, who hears that someone is coming, and is desperately looking for somewhere to hide. So now I’m leaning towards かな as in a hopeful wondering whether there isn’t somewhere to hide…
… Until I saw the hopeful aspect of かな, I was leaning towards merely か, wondering whether there wasn’t somewhere to hide.

FINAL ANSWER
じゃないかな
隠れるところがないじゃないかな!
Isn’t there anywhere to hide?!

But also, downtimes, please, always discuss discuss anything. Even if we are first struggling without peeking, your thoughts and advice make more sense and hit harder after we are having our confusions… So I will just hold off on peeking…
Now ..I feel much more secure in my initial impression that ところhere refers to a “place”, after seeing your thoughts, too

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@downtimes I was asking Shannon if she wanted to give it a shot and compare her answer to mine. Anyone can see anything they want :slightly_smiling_face: .

Haven’t read Shannon yet, I want to try on my own, compare after.

  1. 隠れ+るところ+が+ない _______ ！
    じゃないが
    じゃないかな
    じゃないかしら
    じゃないか

ESU ①： 隠れる (modifier)+ところ (m.e.): hide+place = a place to hide, hiding place.

が：particle

No hiding place, there’s no hiding place.

ESU ②： (one of the answers)

So じゃない：is a an expression of negation, です neg = じゃない.

How can there be two sequential negatives? ない+じゃない？ I guess the ending of じゃない will be determinant here.

image
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I wonder if it’s not a hiding place.

That’s not too bad, let’s try that.

…

Answer:

Nope, that’s not it. じゃないか is the answer. *It’s not a hiding place isn’t it?*Maybe in that sense. Let’s see what Shannon thinks.

You’re telling me! :distorted_face:

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Man, this issue comes up rather a lot!
Anyway, the key to not think that they “cancel one another out”, as they do in English or French…
For me, it’s most annoying with しか to say “There is only {s.o. or s.t.}”
Because しか requires negative Verb usage
…Tofugu on しか, さら, なえ
They say that it may be easier to think of しか as “nothing other than the listed item”, instead of “only”…

Here’s another grammar review worth reading. It’s from Wasabi, I find their grammar commentaries to be clear, readable, and often informative from what I feel is a native speaker’s point of view.
…Wasabi on Expressing Doubt, comparing かな, かしら, だろうか, and (Oh, crud!!) ではないか
…I say “Oh, crud”… Because じゃない is the casual form of ではない… And they have it here with か as a thing…
…I see, also, that apparently, I maybe misread the gender thing?

They show examples where
…かな neutral
…かしら feminine
…だろうか masculine
…ですかな elderly
…ますかな feminine
…でしょうか neutral

Summary
かな, かしら, and だろうか express “to wonder” in Japanese.
のではないか expresses uncertainty.
だろう confirms something to clear up doubts you have.
だろう and ではないか confirm preconditions for the coming main topics.
だろう and ではないか indicate blame.
ではないか indicates discovery just like the explanatory のだ and the ta-form.
Although the similar forms may confuse you, the sentence patterns are very important, especially, かな and だろう （でしょう） as they are very often heard in everyday life. In practice, like the sentence ending particles, they tend to get affected by dialects. For example, だろう becomes やろう in the Kansai region and is used by both male and female.

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Oh so you think it’s expressing doubt here… Hmm… interesting.

So じゃないか is the same thing as ではないか then, just plain instead of polite.

So it’s like:

「隠れるところ」+「が」+「ない」 + 「じゃないか」 (expressing doubt)?

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I leave this link here as well:

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I’m sticking with the hopeful じゃないかな answer.
「隠れるところ」+「が」+「ない」 + 「じゃないかな」 (expressing hope)

I was just continuing to read on all of these so I can hopefully be able to make a fast clear decision on other questions…

I love that… Now that I’ve thought about it more, the answer が that I would have selected in the test situation seems like the clearly wrong answer. :sweat_smile:

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The Bunpro examples are absolutely helpful, but I would love to see how they would convey the double negative like in the question! Would you translate this as:

隠れるところがないじゃないか - There isn’t a place to hide, is there?

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Sorry, edited my message, you made a slight mistake.

For those who are wondering, like I was:

Unlike じゃない and ではない (which need to come after a noun or な-Adjective), じゃないか is able to be attached to the end of almost any phrase, to indicate a question. This is very similar to finishing a sentence with ‘isn’t it?’ in English.

From Bunpro.

I’d say syzygy14’s translation is accurate.

It wasn’t that hard once you knew that じゃないか meant isn’t but if you didn’t, you were stuck with double negatives and that made it spicy (for me anyway).

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Yes! I like syzygy’s interpretation, best for this.
I’m curious to find out what was the “most correct” answer, in the end. Did you already confirm that it was “じゃないか”, Zizkaさん? Or was that merely your final answer?

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It’s from the answer key. I wouldn’t consider my own answer as the right one without first checking. :slightly_smiling_face:

I’m putting 6 and 7 down.

7. りんごとバナナとではどちら _______ すきですか。
で

が
は
と

8. 彼女は自分がとてもひどいことをして _______ と思って後悔した。
みたんだ
しまったんだ
きたんだ
おいたんだ

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LoLoL
:grin:

Well then, sigh :laughing:
I got the darned thing wrong twice?!

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Oh man, my answer for this is lame.

Is が because… At this point, is how I would have said that.

For these things, they usually reserve は for the person to whom the item is pleasing (because 好き is a なAdj; so I won’t use the English Verb “to like”, although it fits “the interpretation” better)
For example:

Zizkaさんは りんごとバナナとどちらがすきですか。

BunPro on AとB(と), どちらが好きですか。link

:thinking: Hmmm… Why is there an extra では in there? Is it trying to say “among these, which”, as with の中で or のうちで
And… Hey, wait, Shannon… There"s a は already… Right there with the で…

Then there is a question whether, when they say “among theseで” do they add a で after どちら … I don’t think that they would. But I didn’t find a good model example of a question. This is a model answer from BunPro where they use の中で: 食べ物の中で寿司が一番好き。Out of all foods, I like sushi best. (Sushi is the number 1 liked food)
… And I see that BunPro used “liked” to Adjective-ize 好き

Sheは herselfが {very horrible thing}を (to do, connecting form) ___ ({quoteと} + to think {“and” connecting Verb form} regretted it.

All four options end with だ, making me certain that it was a {quoteと}+ 思う
Which means She thought and regretted that she herself (will do/does/did connecting Verb, するtense not known) a very horrible thing…___

してみた …tried to do
…Tofugu on てみる for attempts
she herself had attempted to do a very horrible thing
This one seems possible. But since it’s an incomplete act, maybe she wouldn’t have regretted it? :cross_mark:

してしまった … ended up doing (regret nuance)
…IMABI on てしまう.
She herself had ended up doing a very horrible thing.
I like how the nuance of regret is reflected in her actually regretting it. :hollow_red_circle:
彼女は自分がとてもひどいことをして しまったんだ と思って後悔した。
She thought that she, herself, had ended up doing a very horrible thing, and she regretted it.

してきた
…Tofugu on てくる for gradual changes… They say that ~てくる focuses on the end point , so interpretation takes a form of had done, as in
She herself had done a very horrible thing OR ELSE, It is an action that hasn’t finished yet and the action is getting closer to this point in time, where the speaker is looking back.
So far, she has herself done a very horrible thing
There no reason to think what she already “regretted” is an ongoing thing. So :cross_mark:

しておいた
…Tofugu on ておく This construction describes an act done in preparation for something else in the future.
She herself did a very horrible thing beforehand
This one just didn’t make sense to me. So :cross_mark:

And because syzygy makes a good point…
I’m going to attempt to make a few sentences:

There isn’t anywhere to eat in this town, is there?
この町で食べるところがないじゃないか。

There aren’t any movies that you want to watch on Netflix, are there?
ネットフリックスであなたが見ったがった映画がないじゃないか。

When I asked Google to say “You wish you’d never said that, don’t you?” It “softened it” with a と思う; and used でしょう to make my prediction “uncertain” (as they do on the TV news, in a polite and professional-sounding manner). They used a ことを言う “Thing that one says” construction. And a Verb(えば)よかった suggestion construction.
あなたはきっと、あんなことを言わなければよかったと思っているでしょう？
I was trying to get a negative Verb with something other than がない to slap the じゃないか onto…

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I didn’t check Shannonsan answers but she got a like from downtimes so she probably got it right. I’ll do it and compare after.

7. りんごとバナナとではどちら _______ すきですか。
で

が
は
と

So, as far as I’m concerned, this is exactly like the question where there was the は/が, this one:

4. あなた _______ 一番したいことはなんですか？
が
は
に
も

To quote pm215, it also ‘feels’ right in this case.

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