No no, just the ~6000 Kanken level 1 kanji are enough.
3 Likes
If your primary goal is reading then kanji probably will be more important which I already said. But I think ābetterā is completely subjective when based on an individualās goal. When Iām trying to listen and speak, no one cares how many kanji I know or JLPT level because itās completely irrelevant. Iāve known various native Japanese who scored high in TOEIC or could publish scientific paper but painfully struggled with basic conversation. Even my early first attempts with Japanese, I decided to start with writing in a kanji workbookā¦it was totally backwards when my immediate goals were communication.
I can say that WK alone has contributed only a small fraction toward direct communication improvement given the time invested. Itās certainly helped towards better outside vocab acquisition, then reading and then better writing and if I can get towards productive methods, I will speak and listen better. Reading while listening has helped as well but these are all additional study steps outside of kanji study. On the other hand, grammar development has been instrumental for alot of communication needs for speaking/listening along with reading/writing.
Itās a polarizing opinion question to begin with though. As you said, itās all necessary.
Kanken 1 is just the beginning of your Japanese adventure
7 Likes
Until wanikani at least, better N1. That was what I meant with all of themā¦I know theyāre are not āall all all allā all of them 
. My mistake English is not my mother tongue and I tend to not elaborate to much. But I thought it was obvious N1 were what I intended and not more obscure ones that Japanese native study after high school if they study themā¦
Any less and I really donāt think you can be a well rounded and functional adult. You could have difficulties reading documentsā¦You canāt read journals even if you are a japanese and speak Japanese for exampleā¦
And I donāt think someone which is not native can learn a fluent japanese without knowing wanikani kanji at least. You donāt get to read native materials and you canāt learn over a certain level. I learnt this myself after my degree. Thatās my opinion and of course everyone can disagree but I think that learning N1 at least is of the utmost importance. We didnāt learn japanese as a kid and we canāt learn japanese the same way and without being able to read.
It all depends on what peopleās goals are. You can reach a pretty darn high level of spoken and listening proficiency without much reading ability at all, depending on how you are learning.
If you donāt mind that youāll need to pull out your phone to translate stuff occasionally, I can see some people who live in Japan not really caring that they canāt read documents that well. They might not have any interest in reading newspapers.
If that makes them ānot well-rounded,ā but theyāre doing fine the 99% of the rest of the time they arenāt at some kind of government office, I donāt really see that as a pressing issue
3 Likes
I think then it all depends on how you define a high levelā¦how can they learn the plus 10 thousand words you need to be fluent (at least) without reading? I really have never seen someone speaking fluent japanese (and with fluent I donāt intend small chat but speaking about every topic) without being literate. They donāt make children study N1 kanji for a hobbyā¦you are pretty limited without it like an illiterate one would be limited in my country without reading and writing Italian. And even in our mother tongue, it ās pretty obvious when you listen to someone if that someone has a habit of reading or not and how muchā¦if you donāt read you have a pretty limited vocabulary and way to express yourself even if you talk this language since when you were a little kid. And we havenāt had that level of exposure to the language.
Of course If you intend you can go to buy food and games and work (a job when you donāt need to read and write) maybe you can do thatā¦but you could do that in English also. I believe that to be fluent is another matter.
- WaniKani Level: 3 (I was previously lvl 10)
- JLPT Level: Iād say Iām around N5 but my grammarās weaker than Iād like vnv
- Resources/Materials: I havenāt finished any one resource, but Iām currently doing WaniKani, Torii SRS for core 10k (excluding WK vocab), and Mango Languages for listening/speaking practice (speaking has been the hardest for me since Iām learning completely by myself vnv)
- Your Next Goal: I really want to enroll in a Japanese course this spring. I think I could benefit from a more structured learning environment as well as meeting and interacting with other learners in person (Iām terrified of going to any kind of meetup right now dfghj). Iād also like to settle on a source of grammar lessons. Iām coming back from a hiatus so Iāve half forgotten half already learned a bunch of stuffā¦ supplemental sources are always great, but I need to settle on a main source to followā¦
Thatās quite a bold statement. I donāt think thereās any solid evidence on that. Thereās been studies that the ability to be able to speak without an accent diminishes as you get older but you can get pretty darn good otherwise even as an adult if you can immerse yourself. You can learn āperfectā grammar without ever opening a grammar book, even as an adult.
I was talking about this with someone the other day. I think the biggest thing holding back adults is anxiety and unwillingness to make mistakes (putting aside lack of immersion for many people), not innate ability to learn.
6 Likes
And the fact that hardly ever as an adult you can get in an environment where you only really speak the language you are learning. Even then you are constantly juggling other responsibilities in your native tongue.
3 Likes
I have no idea how you see āfluencyā but lots of people have become fluent without reading. You can do it through being immersed in the language. Itās not the most convenient, or efficient, way, but it can be done.
I can read quite well, but speaking isnāt really my strong suit. I wish I had better fluidity of speech. Thatās often what people imagine when they talk about fluency. Knowing 10000 words and 2000 kanji will not make the words flow out of your mouth. Thatās a separate process anyway.
3 Likes
Iām quite sure the evidence is children develope languages in a different way if they learn them under or above 3 years. The way language works in our brains is literally different. Clearly there are adults speaking perfectly two or three languages but the all thing about learning from immersion without reading I donāt believe is scientific based. Of course immersion is necessary and thatās why reading native material is importantā¦but There is evidence about the importance of +1 learning not +1000 and you became fluent just by listening to unknown words as an adultā¦
I can suggest reading this interesting book for example: āan introduction to bilingual developmentā by Annick de Houwer. Children learn differently even in different ages, adults are obviously a lot more different.
Definitely funnier to imagine a new kanji being invented, which causes all Japanese readers to suddenly be plunged into illiteracy until they get the memo.
Waiting patiently to get that new kanji out of the apprentice level so they can read street signs, menus, etc.
5 Likes
Yes, this was a completely accurate depiction of what I was describing.
Did you ever share your details? Whatās your JLPT level out of curiosity?
nope I didnāt 
Iām just starting to live the community hereā¦Iāve studied all kanji and Iām SRSing all KKLC with Anki at the moment and Iāve started N1 grammar but I really really need more vocabularyā¦I think Iām about N3-N2 in terms of that now. I graduated in Japanese in college but Iāve worked for several years now in a different line of interest (my first degree) and so I lost a lotā¦Iām trying to get back in track and get better. At college they used to teach really a low number of kanji and vocabulary and I feel like this was a serious hindrance to progress towards what I think to be fluencyā¦this is the reason behind my words also. Since I started again Iāve been learning more kanji, vocabulary and grammar and I can now read (the most) and listen to something (very simple) native and I feel like Iām really getting better everydayā¦
Iām in not in a hurry to try a test at the moment but Iāll try N1 when I will feel like I could pass itā¦
2 Likes
Are you saying blind people canāt become fluent in Japanese? I know people who would disagree.
6 Likes
Ummā¦ ē¹å is a thing.
Not that I wanna get involved, just. You know.
The article on ę¼¢ē¹å is actually really interesting.
8 Likes
- WaniKani Level: 4 - Been signed on since 2017, but things kept getting in the way. Now thatās taken care of, I started doing it seriously from level 2 at the end of last year
- JLPT Level: N/A - Havanāt taken it yet.
- Resources/Materials: Genki I with workbook: Chapter 4 currently. Genki II with workbook: havenāt started. Human Japanese: Finished. Human Japanese Intermediate: Do it on break at work - Chapter 5 currently.
- Your Next Goal: My current goal is to finish my Genki books. My Overall goal is to take the JLPT N5 exam at the end of the year.
1 Like
The person I know is using ē¹å, but I donāt know if it includes ę¼¢ē¹å. Based on their age and the fact that the article mentions it was still in development in the early 1990s, they probably didnāt learn it in school 
Iāve seen them use their computer though. A synthetic voice reads out everything they mouse over. It was really interesting to see.
(Itās also completely beside the point, but hey).
1 Like
Are they native or not?
If theyāre native, yes they can, even if you can usually say if someone read a lot or not. Iām a teacher myself and I can assure you, at high school level became most evident even if a native read books and his friend does not. Construction of the phrase and vocabulary varies a lot.
If theyāre not native, it would be very difficult to be fluent, I would like to state also that very rare exception are what the word infersā¦very rare exception. Iām really curious at why so many people fail at becoming proficiency in Japanese if you compare that to other languages if not for the kanji barrier, which stop students to attack early in studies native material. What a pity they donāt know they can do without read and get proficiency anyway. And Iām most curious to know why people here try to get to 60ā¦they can be fluent without. I strongly disagree Iām sorryā¦