獣の奏者 chapter 4, part 3 discussion

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Chapter 4, Part 3: カザルム王獣保護場、ユーヤン

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Start Date: May 9th
Previous Week: Chapter 4, part 2
Next Week: Chapter 4, part 4

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79% (whatever page that is)

ジョウンに教えてもらっていたときは、疑問が浮かんだらすぐに尋ねることができたけれど、ここでは、そんなふうに次から次へと質問していくような学童はいない。皆、黙々と講義を聞くだけだったから、自分だけ手をあげて質問するのはためらわれた

Why is it ためらわれた, in passive? I understand the meaning of the sentence, but I don’t understand why it’s written this way.

This is probably just the 間接受身 showing that her hesitance was caused by no one else asking questions in the first place, and it wasn’t out of her own feelings.

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Thanks. I really hate that construction. When I first learned about it I started over-analyzing every passive I saw thinking it might be that. But (I think) I actually see it so infrequently that it’s never become natural to me.

Is it fair to say that if I see an intransitive verb in passive form it has to be 間接受身?

If I see a transitive verb in passive, does that mean it has to be 直接受身 or can it also be 間接受身? Or does the distinction/nuance not matter at that point and I just shouldn’t worry about it? (I think this is what I got hung up on when I learned it the first time.)

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Is it fair to say that if I see an intransitive verb in passive form it has to be 間接受身?

Yes intransitive in 受身 form is always 間接受身, but I try not to think in terms of transitive/intransitive here as that usually makes things even harder.

If I see a transitive verb in passive, does that mean it has to be 直接受身 or can it also be 間接受身?

Transitive can definitely be 間接受身 too, so:

For me, I feel it’s easier to let reading inform my familiarity with the verb and how it’s commonly used instead of worrying about its transitivity category and the like. With time (per verb and its common collocations) it’s becoming easier to naturally get if it’s indirect receptive, passive, or even potential.

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@Naphthalene One of your favorite words (云々) makes an appearance, though not with the meaning I’ve seen you use before!

(Hopefully I’m not misremembering who likes that word.)

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Possibly? I do like that word, but I do not know if I expressed that on the forum.
Also, I do not remember seeing it in this week’s reading… which made me realize I didn’t finish it (I was interrupted and forgot).

Edit: but yes, it’s a completely different meaning of 云々. I didn’t even know that one. Interestingly, each meaning seems to be used in a specific way (as suffix, 云々の, と云々 and 云々する the one we have now).

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Maybe I just read your mind. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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I have never been good with ransitive/intrasitive, passive/active in Japanese my brain just skipped what he doesn’t like. Which cause problem of understanding sometime ha ha

There is more than one meaning to that word?

This week reading was heart warming. A short but nice chapter full of emotions.Btw What is the dialect ユーヤン is it an osaka dialect? It seems she must finish her sentence with a “a”.

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There are four :stuck_out_tongue:

Or ん

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oh my ! ok then I will need to check that out. Thx for the info

???

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She also ends her sentences with ん. (It’s hard to quote spoilered text, but that’s what Naphthalene was responding too.)

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haaaaaaaaaa. Thx I didn’t get that. Yeah she do that to.

I don’t like reading japanese dialect :sleeping:

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Because it puts you to sleep (based on that emoji) or because it’s hard? I thought it was pretty easy to understand overall. :man_shrugging:

Yes, I don’t get it very well and it makes me sleepy because it sort of lull me :upside_down_face:

I finally read this week’s part, and I have some questions:

77%:
腹の底に何もない - what does this expression mean? First I read it literally as “her stomach was empty” :joy_cat: but probably the meaning is more like “innocently” or “not having braced oneself” or something?

78%:
中途 - so far I’ve only come across 途中 :joy_cat: and I’m wondering how (if at all) they differ in meaning, as in Jisho they look pretty similar (except for the fact that 中途 explicitly means “mid-course” which is the meaning we are looking for here, but other than that, they look almost the same to me). Does anybody have any insights on their differences?

78%:
くだらんまねはせん - In general I kinda manage the dialect, but this phrase tripped me up. I’m guessing 下らないまねはしないで , but what is the bold part supposed to mean? (Or is my guess wrong altoghether?)

Thanks for any insights!

77%:
I doubt it’s an expression. It might mean something similar to what you said (I don’t remember the context at all so I can’t answer)

78%:
They are very different. 途中 being a temporal noun (it’s also adverbial) and can mean “on the way”, whereas 中途 is a simple noun and always means “half-way”.
(In addition, you might have come across the common 中途ちゅうと半端はんぱ expression before)

78%:
下らない まねは しないで. You got that right. This is 真似はしないで (“don’t act like that”)

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I also could not find a definition for this expression specifically, but based on other expressions that include 腹の底 and the second definition of 腹の底 on goo, I took it to mean something like “guileless” or “an open book”. I’m just guessing though.

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I kind of understand that it harder to get but I love dialect anyway. Give the character more background and change the mood of the reading I think. Also easier to know who is speaking :joy:

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