俺が殺す vs 俺を殺す should normally make clear what this is about. same for 俺を落とす、俺が落とす。
the fact that this does not work with 落ちる (and any intransitives) might be what confuses people.
I am aware of this.
if を is used with a verb then that verb is acted on by the topic isn’t it?
私達は命を落とす危険がある the topic is us, and the acted on verb is drop.
In this case, it’s not drop, it’s lost, but yes. Just like the English phrase.
He lost his life.
He is the doer of the losing, and the life is the direct object lost. It doesn’t matter how it happened.
So wouldn’t that mean they killed themselves？ as they are the ones who did the verb to them selves?
It doesn’t mean they killed themselves in either language, even though it’s transitive in both.
I lost my shoe doesn’t mean I threw it away.
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But theirs no を In the English language.With that を It clearly indicates they are killing them selves.Where as in English it’s not clear if they are in danger of losing there lives due to there own doing or by the doing of something else?
in Japanese if someone is killed, is it viewed as the victim killed themselves?
It doesn’t. There’s no way to interpret it that way.
The verb lose simply doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means.
I don’t think I’ll be able to help.
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Well, the replies were pretty useful for me. Lotta good examples. It can be tricky, but I think I have come to understand it more. Thanks.
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you cannot be in danger of killing yourself. you can kill yourself or not.
you cannot lose your life to suicide, you can take it by suicide.
自殺することにした
自分を殺すことにした
this is what you’re looking at when you deal with suicide.
“we’re in danger of losing our lives” is what your sentence means. there’s something that threatens their lives.
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But there are still direct objects in English, the situation is very similar. “He lost his life” would be “He が his の life を lost” [OK, this is strange].
You see that there is an active agent: he is actually doing something, he is losing. But it doesn’t imply intention, it does not switch to “he killed himself” just because he is an active agent. Like I said before, it can be transitive, active, and still unintentional.
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it seems like this sentence is in first person. where as your example is from the third person point of view.
that doesn’t matter.
you don’t even use the subject at all unless it’s needed for comprehension.
を indicates direct object of action。
私達は命を落とす危険がある。
cleraly in this sentance the 私達 is the thing that does the action of losing.
if your wallet falls out your pocket while going for a walk you did that action of losing it unknowingly.
if somone robs your wallet while going for a walk the robber did the action of stealing it.
if yo kill yourself while going for a walk in the park, you did the action of killing yourself.
if a someone kills you in the park that somone did that action of killing you.
私達は命を落とす危険がある。 in that sentance who is the one doing the action of the verb 落とす?
Why would anyone say “We were in danger of losing our lives.” if they were going to kill themselves?
you would say that if someone or something was going to do the action of taking your life.
May I rephrase your example situations above sightly so that they illustrate the point better?
LOSING YOUR WALLET
if your wallet falls out your pocket while going for a walk you did that action of losing it unintentionally.
if someone robs your wallet while going for a walk the robber did the action of stealing it.
LOSING YOUR LIFE
if you lose your life because someone stabs you while in the park, you did the action of losing it unintentionally
if a someone kills you in the park that someone did that action of killing you. If you kill yourself in the park, you did the action of killing you.
I changed “unknowingly” to “unintentionally” because I can’t imagine dying without being aware of it; in any case neither the intention nor the knowledge of the act influence transitivity, but yeah. For the sake of the example situation.
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in that sentence the life is the direct object. the fact that it is prefacing itself with 私達 doesn’t matter.
As for us, lives can be lost.
Lives can be lost.
Wallets can be (in danger of being) lost.
the sentence might be about 私達, but it’s not necessarily happening to 私達 in the grammatical sense.
In the first case we would not use “lose your life”.
In the second case we would.
And yet, you seem to be suggesting it would be the opposite.
I know this won’t help, I’m just going along for the ride now.
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LOSING YOUR LIFE
if you lose your life because someone stabs you while in the park, you did the action of losing it unintentionally
Thanks this made things a lot clearer.
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やった！
I was actually just typing up a follow-up reply to your question. I guess I’ll add it anyway, in case it helps you a bit more:
私達は命を落とす危険がある。 in that sentance who is the one doing the action of the verb 落とす?
To answer your question, yes, it is 私達.
We lose our lives. Somebody takes our lives from us.
We lose our wallets. Somebody takes our wallets from us.
Alternatively, we could take our own lives (kill ourselves). Similarly, we could take our wallets. In either case, we couldn’t say we lost them, though.
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天才です！ありがとうございましたよ！
Looks like my response is too late, but maybe it still helps to analyze the whole sentence in more detail for a better understanding:
私達は命を落とす危険がある。
Let’s start by reducing it to the basic sentence:
- 危険がある。 Danger exists./There is danger.
What danger exists? 命を落とす危険 - 命を落とす危険がある。 [Losing life] danger exists./There is danger of losing life.
What is the topic? 私達は - 私達は命を落とす危険がある。 As for us, there is danger of losing life.
The grammatical subject of the sentence is 危険 and the verb that it does is ある. 命を落とす is just a subsentence describing 危険 in more detail.
は marks the topic, is very flexible and therefore the listener has to do some work to do the correct interpretation. In this case, the は marks for whom the danger exists. 私達は危険がある。- As for us, there is danger. If it would have been a time span, like for example 今日は, then it would mean when the danger exists. 今日は危険がある。- As for today, there is danger.
Your main question was about the subsentence that describes the danger in more detail, and why を is used and not が, but I think that was cleared up already.
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