jonnydark said...
Christ, sorry for even asking. Apparently if you ask a question on this forum, people second guess your intentions and assume you're an asshole who doesn't actually want to learn.
All I was suggesting was something to tell you to "read the question, idiot" - but apparently that's an awful idea and I'm a terrible person for even suggesting it. Sorry, alright?
Worst thing: You don't even get it, do you?
The worst thing is that you are disrespectful. Insulting people doesn't help, regardless of whether you are right or wrong.
And in all fairness, it might be you who doesn't get it in this case. Read closer.
The OP says he knows WK's preferred kanji reading, and knows the vocab reading. But since WK switches back and forth between kanji questions and vocab questions, he mistook which question was being asked... as in, "Oh, I thought you were asking me for the kanji, not the vocab." I used to make the same mistake myself, and it in no way reflects upon my knowledge. If I got 10 kanji questions in a row, then suddenly got a vocab question, I might miss the color change and mistakenly assume it was another kanji question. It's a natural mistake that has nothing to do with knowledge... rather, the brain is designed to follow a line of thought, and when you break that line people will sometimes miss the cue of the transition.
All he was asking for was a way to be told if he was answering the wrong question... not a way to ignore wrong knowledge. Of course, that could be abused, just like Override, as people pointed out. But just as lots of people use Override responsibly (for typos only), such a script could be used responsibly. But as I pointed out (and OP agreed) there are better solutions, such as grouping kanji questions together, and grouping vocab questions together. That reduces the chances of non-knowledge-related mistakes that distract from learning.
jonnydark said...
Christ, sorry for even asking. Apparently if you ask a question on this forum, people second guess your intentions and assume you're an asshole who doesn't actually want to learn.
All I was suggesting was something to tell you to "read the question, idiot" - but apparently that's an awful idea and I'm a terrible person for even suggesting it. Sorry, alright?
Worst thing: You don't even get it, do you?
The worst thing is that you are disrespectful. Insulting people doesn't help, regardless of whether you are right or wrong.
And in all fairness, it might be you who doesn't get it in this case. Read closer.
The OP says he knows WK's preferred kanji reading, and knows the vocab reading. But since WK switches back and forth between kanji questions and vocab questions, he mistook which question was being asked... as in, "Oh, I thought you were asking me for the kanji, not the vocab." I used to make the same mistake myself, and it in no way reflects upon my knowledge. If I got 10 kanji questions in a row, then suddenly got a vocab question, I might miss the color change and mistakenly assume it was another kanji question. It's a natural mistake that has nothing to do with knowledge... rather, the brain is designed to follow a line of thought, and when you break that line people will sometimes miss the cue of the transition.
All he was asking for was a way to be told if he was answering the wrong question... not a way to ignore wrong knowledge. Of course, that could be abused, just like Override, as people pointed out. But just as lots of people use Override responsibly (for typos only), such a script could be used responsibly. But as I pointed out (and OP agreed) there are better solutions, such as grouping kanji questions together, and grouping vocab questions together. That reduces the chances of non-knowledge-related mistakes that distract from learning.
I thought this online community was one of those glowing exceptions where people are overwhelmingly nice to each other, but I can see it’s full of jerks too…
Well I’ve been here for a while, and this is the first time I spot this kind of behavior, so that counts for something.
Artur said...
I thought this online community was one of those glowing exceptions where people are overwhelmingly nice to each other, but I can see it's full of jerks too...
Well I've been here for a while, and this is the first time I spot this kind of behavior, so that counts for something.
Bruh, have you never seen the threads where newbies fail to read faq/guide?
jonnydark said...
Christ, sorry for even asking. Apparently if you ask a question on this forum, people second guess your intentions and assume you're an asshole who doesn't actually want to learn.
All I was suggesting was something to tell you to "read the question, idiot" - but apparently that's an awful idea and I'm a terrible person for even suggesting it. Sorry, alright?
It's just the unfortunate nature of the Internet, which makes some people feel entitled to act like jerks to make up for the boring, ordinary lives. Regardless, the ultimate review order script as mentioned above is a good way to help separate radicals, kanji, and vocab reviews so that one is in the right frame of mind for each section.
I learned on a manfacturing job that the best way to avoid repeated errors/defects is to eliminate the factors that allow you to make the mistakes in the first place (seems obvious, right?), and the least effective solution is to tell people to stop making mistakes and "be more careful" or "pay more attention". Sadly, though, the latter is the most common solution given.
Absolutely spot on. More often than not, the issue is with the interface and not the person, and WK is no exception to that.
jonnydark said...
Christ, sorry for even asking. Apparently if you ask a question on this forum, people second guess your intentions and assume you're an asshole who doesn't actually want to learn.
All I was suggesting was something to tell you to "read the question, idiot" - but apparently that's an awful idea and I'm a terrible person for even suggesting it. Sorry, alright?
It's just the unfortunate nature of the Internet, which makes some people feel entitled to act like jerks to make up for the boring, ordinary lives. Regardless, the ultimate review order script as mentioned above is a good way to help separate radicals, kanji, and vocab reviews so that one is in the right frame of mind for each section.
I learned on a manfacturing job that the best way to avoid repeated errors/defects is to eliminate the factors that allow you to make the mistakes in the first place (seems obvious, right?), and the least effective solution is to tell people to stop making mistakes and "be more careful" or "pay more attention". Sadly, though, the latter is the most common solution given.
Absolutely spot on. More often than not, the issue is with the interface and not the person, and WK is no exception to that.
Oh yes of course, anyone who says something that might imply you're less than perfect is an inconsiderate jerk. I'll try to keep that in mind at all times.
It’s worth noting that WK points to the benefits of interleaving in the FAQ just as they point to the benefits of SRS. Obviously anyone is free to do as they please, but it seems like the ultimate review order script definitely undermines that element of their system. When you are not expecting a particular item and you remember it anyway, that has a stronger effect than knowing which batch of words is about to come. Sometimes I’ve encountered kanji “in the wild” and found that I didn’t immediately recognize them, even though I had studied them. I think my prior reliance on flash card priming could partially have been to blame.
Again, people are free to alter their WK experience, but I just wanted to point out that there’s a basis for using interleaving.
jonnydark said...
Christ, sorry for even asking. Apparently if you ask a question on this forum, people second guess your intentions and assume you're an asshole who doesn't actually want to learn.
All I was suggesting was something to tell you to "read the question, idiot" - but apparently that's an awful idea and I'm a terrible person for even suggesting it. Sorry, alright?
Worst thing: You don't even get it, do you?
The worst thing is that you are disrespectful. Insulting people doesn't help, regardless of whether you are right or wrong.
[...]
LOL yeah, keep trying.
Are you bitter in general, or is it just because it's the Internet?
WaniKani is an accepting, open-minded community, and it's people like you that make it not so when you turn a harmless question into an opportunity to shame someone. ٩(๑`^´๑)۶
Leebo said...
It's worth noting that WK points to the benefits of interleaving in the FAQ just as they point to the benefits of SRS. Obviously anyone is free to do as they please, but it seems like the ultimate review order script definitely undermines that element of their system. When you are not expecting a particular item and you remember it anyway, that has a stronger effect than knowing which batch of words is about to come. Sometimes I've encountered kanji "in the wild" and found that I didn't immediately recognize them, even though I had studied them. I think my prior reliance on flash card priming could partially have been to blame.
Again, people are free to alter their WK experience, but I just wanted to point out that there's a basis for using interleaving.
Given that there doesn't seem to be any studies on this particular issue, it's rather a matter of debate that can't be simply resolved by pointing to the FAQ. Further, WK recognizes to some extent that interleaving isn't always beneficial, because it introduces Kanji readings before Vocab readings (which is a form of blocking). However, that raises a question of why reaching Guru status is suddenly the right crossover point to introduce interleaving. When you have a language like Japanese that has rule and non-rule features to pronunciation (in the sense of On'yomi vs. Kun'yomi), it likely makes more sense to proceed with blocking for some time, rather than simply switching immediately to an interleaved format.
At some point, interleaving may have an advantage in marginally improving memorization (and marginal is a key word here), but my suspicion is that it's probably after you've passed one or two levels of material, not at the moment one reaches Guru status on Kanji. However, until someone conducts an actual study, we can't really be sure outside of our own subjective experiences. In the end though, regardless of interleaving, it's going to be when someone can start reading or speaking Japanese that really big improvements in understanding occurs (as context teaches far more than flash cards ever will), so I wouldn't get overly concerned about it.
Blocking your reviews as opposed to interleaving them isn’t the same as literally looking at which words and kanji are going to come in the next section, but it’s certainly related. If you know that the kanji 水 will definitely appear before the vocab word 水 in your review, you have allowed the program to do some of your recollecting for you, even if subconsciously.
Thank you for the study that found that interleaving was detrimental in that case, but of course, it does begin with the sentence “Many studies have shown that students learn better when they are given repeated exposures to different concepts in a way that is shuffled or interleaved, rather than blocked”.
I’m not trying to take a hard stand that people should or shouldn’t do their reviews a certain way, and the differences may indeed be marginal, but it’s something to consider when you decide to change how the review system works.
Leebo said...I'm not trying to take a hard stand that people should or shouldn't do their reviews a certain way, and the differences may indeed be marginal, but it's something to consider when you decide to change how the review system works.
It's also something to consider when people presume that the system is optimal, rather than one built on presumptions that are untested and may not be valid.
Dear and lovely people feeling raw: (I’m all heart at times see?)
I’m smart enough to understand that some people use some scripts in order to avoid some silly mistakes like typos and stuff, also, in order to accelerate their pace they use the re-order script. I’m smart enough to understand that some people has grow enough to be serious about it and not cheat themselves, because the very reason they are here is to learn; and not to show others they are geniuses, or just brag about how they keep breaking records here. Funny thing, these WaniKani members I’m talking about, are some of the most useful and dedicated people on this site. They are humble enough to understand they are not geniuses yet they are always trying to help us poor peasants learn something new or even help us understand something we can’t on our own; something; anything about the language we’re trying to learn. Not to mention they try to show other people how important it is to learn about the culture and Japanese stuff. I really like these people, heck they’re not even get paid, they just do it because they want/can. They are the very basis of Wanikani.
Now.
I’m “jerk”, “dumb”, or maybe “idiot” enough (whatever you want to throw at me really) to understand that some OTHER people, will cheat. Period. Why? because of human nature? age? reasons? because the rain falls from above and not the other way around?
I really dislike this kind of people, Why? because they make a lot of noise. and is full of nothing. Void. Emptiness. They are as useful as:
That being said; I’m smart enough to understand that some scripts may enhance the WaniKani experience, I really do, (I’ve still decided not to use any as some others tho) but I’m not starting a revolution in order to ban scripts or anything, if you could take your time to read carefully, instead of feeling being pointed at; some of you would probably noticed Instead to go all primitive about it and try to defend your piece of the cake, when no one wants to steal it. (rfindley I’m looking at you, heck you’re getting users data so it’s not even like your all altruistic and stuff).
The thread was supposed to be about some one thinking about doing a script because he had no idea how to help himself differentiate purple from pink, so he thought it would be a great idea to cheat his way to the illusion of knowledge, instead of accept that in order to acquire knowledge, you need to be honest to yourself. See the really small difference here? Anyone?
Ever since I started WaniKani about a year ago, I’ve seen many trying to get help in order to get the most out of the site, until some “Genius” comes and implants the idea that cheating is better than to be the “jerk” who won’t do it.
way to go people, as I said before: I really hope you can make a script to take with you when you get to Japan.
Kisses to everyone! (Hersheys’!) and hearts and rainbows and whatever.
Leebo said...I'm not trying to take a hard stand that people should or shouldn't do their reviews a certain way, and the differences may indeed be marginal, but it's something to consider when you decide to change how the review system works.
It's also something to consider when people presume that the system is optimal, rather than one built on presumptions that are untested and may not be valid.
You obviously don't agree that there is more evidence to support interleaving than not, but how would taking the opposite position not also be untested and potentially invalid?
As I said, I am not telling people what they should or shouldn't do (read: I'm not arguing that you are wrong, so you don't need to try to convince me).
Leebo said...
It's worth noting that WK points to the benefits of interleaving in the FAQ just as they point to the benefits of SRS. Obviously anyone is free to do as they please, but it seems like the ultimate review order script definitely undermines that element of their system. When you are not expecting a particular item and you remember it anyway, that has a stronger effect than knowing which batch of words is about to come. Sometimes I've encountered kanji "in the wild" and found that I didn't immediately recognize them, even though I had studied them. I think my prior reliance on flash card priming could partially have been to blame.
Again, people are free to alter their WK experience, but I just wanted to point out that there's a basis for using interleaving.
Given that there doesn't seem to be any studies on this particular issue, it's rather a matter of debate that can't be simply resolved by pointing to the FAQ. Further, WK recognizes to some extent that interleaving isn't always beneficial, because it introduces Kanji readings before Vocab readings (which is a form of blocking). However, that raises a question of why reaching Guru status is suddenly the right crossover point to introduce interleaving. When you have a language like Japanese that has rule and non-rule features to pronunciation (in the sense of On'yomi vs. Kun'yomi), it likely makes more sense to proceed with blocking for some time, rather than simply switching immediately to an interleaved format.
At some point, interleaving may have an advantage in marginally improving memorization (and marginal is a key word here), but my suspicion is that it's probably after you've passed one or two levels of material, not at the moment one reaches Guru status on Kanji. However, until someone conducts an actual study, we can't really be sure outside of our own subjective experiences. In the end though, regardless of interleaving, it's going to be when someone can start reading or speaking Japanese that really big improvements in understanding occurs (as context teaches far more than flash cards ever will), so I wouldn't get overly concerned about it.
I don't think this article indicates much about kanji interleaving and blocking. Rather this is a demonstration of the study of pronunciation keys, where students in one group are given more samples together with the pronunciation they are learning, and the other group is given random words and then tested on pronunciation.
A properly correlated study would have examined learning all kanji with visual similarity to each other at the same time. I would even suggest that you may have better recall with this method, due to the fact that all of the concepts are truly connected in a way that your brain can reconcile. In other words, if you were to learn 唯 誰 雑 雄 推 難 all together, bonus points if there were even more related radicals, that this might improve the integrity of that memory region and also make for an easier test when again presented together. This seems fairly obvious. I don't know if it would be any harder to recall them individually either.
In this case, it does make sense that surrounding kanji lessons and reviews with vocabulary so that it is primed to be registered in a semi random fashion may have a better test result against random input. Comparing the learning of a specific form of pronunciation of syllables in word groups to learning psuedo-random kanji which are almost non-related is not valid.
Edit: I would like to add a personal experience, which is that when I learn a kanji that is extremely similar to a kanji I learned say 20 levels prior except that there is one radical of difference, I will tend to confuse the two kanji. I essentially forget the previous kanji. This is because before introduction to the new kanji, I wasn't forced to distinguish that kanji by the detail that I was conveniently ignoring, which later became a key in its discrimination. While I think this is a failure on WK's part to introduce the kanji in a meaningful order, I believe this has less to do with interleaving in the sense of answering reviews in blocks of all radicals, all kanji, and all vocab, in meaning->reading order with no chance of a brain switch. In reality it's a problem in macro lesson structure and general associations, and not with review methodology.