I actually came in this thread to mention this. I do love his videos and find the information interesting, but man, ever since he’s grown in popularity, whenever this topic comes up, it brings a lot of drama and heated debates. It makes me want to avoid the topic all together whenever I see it. People get WAY too passionate about this. Especially when I’ve seen so many native speakers, teachers, and advanced students of the language say this isn’t as big of a deal as some people are making it out to be. It discourages and stresses out a lot of beginners and intermediates. I’m not saying it’s not a necessary or important thing to look into, my issue is the attitudes surrounding this topic.
I feel like a broken language and an accent are two different things. Perhaps we have differing definitions or experiences, but if someone is fluent in a language but has an accent, I have very little trouble understanding them. But if all they spent time on was fixing their accent and not learning the words, it’s going to sound great, but there can’t be any conversation.
This is an interesting one, I actually think I hear both versions of this where I live, and they’d be two different uses/implied meanings. The former (「ま って 」) I hear used more commonly by the female students to their friends, but even when used by males it tends to be more pleading like “Wait for me! Don’t leave without me!”.
The latter (「ま って」) is conversely used more by boys/men, and to me implies more of a “Wait, what did you just say?”. I also hear this tonality when teachers are scolding students, or giving them a firmer direction not to do anything until they’re told.
As for じゃない I believe it would be "「じゃな い」 as a statement, 「じゃな い」(and continues up) as the implied “isn’t it?” or rhetorical question, and 「じゃな い 」as like an “Ah, is that not the case?” seeking clarification.
Idk if I worded this or used the arrows in a way that makes any sense to people, but in my head it works and I could verbally give examples of all 3, but text is hard.
Just to be clear, I intended the arrows to indicate where the pitch goes after each mora, not where the mora is on the pitch scale. I think you did the same, but just to be sure we’re on the same page…
Interesting!
I’d expect「ま って」 for this (high then low with an abrupt stop at the end) rather than 「ま って」(low then high, possibly with the last syllable being stretched a little). It’s fascinating how common pitch patterns change from region to region though.
I think that sounds about right. I think I can identify each and possibly make each if I have to, but I associate each with a feeling at this point, so I couldn’t come up with each along with its purpose/implication from memory. I think I learnt that the last one sounded a little surprised, which certainly fits what you just said.
I think this is also a good example of how listening to native content is often enough to go from “excruciatingly bad” to “acceptable”. I’ve never heard of this pitch accent rule explicitly stated, but I watch enough anime that I already knew this rule. I don’t expect people to get to “amazing” or “near-native” with this alone, but I do think people can pick up a lot of the basic pitch accent rules from this approach.
This sounds about right to me. If じゃない usually goes down after the な in a statement, then saying 「じゃな い 」 when seeking clarification is really just another example that fits into your general explanation about asking questions ending in a downstepped word. That leaves the implied “isn’t it”, which I guess is just a special thing on its own. By the way, I can say all three of these in the three different ways too, though the “isn’t it” one is harder for some reason.
This was my intent, but I’m still not sure if I really conveyed them the way they sound in my head.
Ah I guess I should clarify this one, as what you just said is another one I hear but hadn’t heard of. What I was trying to say is it goes up from ま to っ, and then the て is low. But yes, regional differences can be super bizarre. My region is known for being the often referenced “flat” Japanese, but it’s more the case that people don’t really pay as much attention to pitch-accent in general here. Here being a very remote and rural mountain region within Tohoku, that has different dialects even in neighboring towns, all of which tend to be harder to understand than other Tohoku dialects I’ve heard.
Totally agree. This is one thing that I think most people actually agree on, it’s just hard sometimes to realize that people are actually on the same page when conversing via text over the internet. I invested a bit more time into phonics because I tend to talk faster than I should, so before my accent was clearer that just exacerbated the issue. Also I just find it super interesting. Because I’m a huge nerd.
I have definitely used this with some of my junior high third years although here it’s more like 「ま ってぇぇ」ending with a little tsch tongue sound if they’re really bugging you. I don’t think that’s unique to 北海道弁 though, most of the 弁-stuff here are bits and pieces from other dialects (due to Hokkaido’s settler history).
I think for a given word, the pitch only changes from high to low or vice versa once. In the case of 待つ it starts high and drops after ま. In the case of 待って, it starts high and drops either after ま or まっ (I’m not sure which is technically the correct way to describe it). But in either case, it starts high. It can’t start low, go up after ま and go down again after っ.
What is the context for this kind of usage? I can definitely hear/say what @Jonapedia and @Houndstooth described (down then up) for the “don’t leave without me” situation (including the extended ぇぇ). But I can’t imagine the situation where it just goes up given that the natural pitch accent (in standard Japanese at least) goes down.
I don’t like him, but I do appreciate him being the first source I’ve seen that made me actively think about pitch accent. I’m sure his Patreon content is extremely good and thorough, Tom Delonge-esque nasal accent aside.
That being said, I also have single-sided deafness. I don’t pick up on pronunciation well even in English, and I can barely hear the difference sometimes with Japanese pitch accent even when I’m trying. This isn’t a “keep listening and you’ll get the hang of it” kinda deal, it’s just beyond my physical capabilities.
So I bear it in mind, I try and listen out for it and mimic it as best as I can, but I’m never gonna sound native and there’s not much point in me expending all my energy (active listening can be very fatiguing) in trying.
Exasperation generally, and it’s usually more like controlled yelling, so the pitch doesn’t really go down. I’m not used to describing pitch accent, so I apologize in advance if my descriptions are confusing, but it kinda just goes up and stays there? It’s sorta weird and unexpected in usage, so it really catches the attention of people around.
In me pronouncing it out-loud just now, trying to find the best way to describe it, it sorta feels like you’re yelling it across a wide open space, or at someone far away - the volume and pitch stay high.
geez maybe I need to study pitch accent now so I can explain things like this better
Sometime it’s not about accent. It’s about saying the wrong words because of the wrong pitch voice. Even worse, many people don’t even realize it.
My langauge share the same aspect with Japanese. The sentence could go in a total different direction if you are saying words with wrong pitch voice. What I mean by total different direction is not about feeling or disrespectness. It makes the meaning of the whole conversation change.
Sorry, wasn’t trying to describe the “correct” pitch-accent, but rather a pattern that I hear in the region I live in. It’s really hard to describe
My best guess here would be like a “Come on, man, why” kind of implication? But I also don’t know much about Hokkaido dialect, so not sure. (Just saw @BigEm already replied, ah well seems like I was close, anyway) The pitch sounds strange though. I’ll chalk that up to 北海道弁.
Honestly, I never know here what is legitimately 北海道弁, so many of the teachers are from other places but it wouldn’t really surprise me if it was, sometimes some of the older residents here start talking to be and their speech patterns/accents are so different that it throws me and I feel like I have to re-learn all the Japanese I know
I will say that while this guy has some entertaining videos, some of them (especially those that surround Japanese study) have some very… interesting… takes that I struggle to agree with. If my memory serves correctly, he tends to make pretty broad sweeping statements about what “Japanese people” do/don’t say/do. Haven’t seen his stuff in a while though, so maybe that’s changed.
TL;DR- just take this guy’s opinions with a grain of salt.
I have complicated feelings about the guy. A non-Japanese person naming themself after a Japanese historical figure is kind of presumptuous. And I don’t want to bring politics into this forum, but the rumors that I’ve heard suggest that he’s… not someone whom I’d see eye-to-eye with on that front either.
But I’m one of his patrons anyway. He has a unique body of knowledge that makes him an important resource for Japanese learners. Even after I took five years of Japanese in school, I’d never heard of pitch accent was until I encountered his videos. Native speakers would always tell me they had no idea what I was saying. Looking back, pitch accent is probably why.
Japanese acquisition contains a lot of sub-skills: kanji; pitch accent; phonology; the topic-comment structure; particles; keigo; politeness levels; remembering to omit extraneous information; remembering to word things indirectly. It’s easy for beginners to feel information overload.
So I wouldn’t prioritize pitch accent as much as he does. Neglecting pitch accent will lead to bad habits, but there’s no getting past beginner level without picking up bad habits anyway. You just have to decide what you’re OK with sucking at.
TL;DR: His videos are a good resource, but only you can decide how important pitch accent is to you.
Seriously though, I appreciate that you can understand that his work is high quality even though you aren’t crazy about the man himself. I think some people get caught up in his personality and think that they’ll learn nothing from him because it just doesn’t match theirs. So thanks!
って 
」) I hear used more commonly by the female students to their friends, but even when used by males it tends to be more pleading like “Wait for me! Don’t leave without me!”.
although here it’s more like 「ま 
