Week 2: 狼と香辛料 - Spice and Wolf 🐺

Whut :exploding_head:

Ok hmmm, so I got curious and checked out the role of adverbs in German, my mother tongue, and there it’s the same as in English :exploding_head:. So I got even more curious and went back to the root of all my grammar knowledge - Latin. And all of a sudden the world turned clear and simple again: Adverbs - Latin :star_struck:
I guess the misunderstandings came in because back in the day people did not really understand the meaning of “adverb” (which is literally “to the verb”) and thought “hey that’s a cool name” and just applied it to everything :grin: :woman_shrugging:
Anyways, thanks a lot for teaching me about so many languages at once.

That’s an interesting take on that, thank you!

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The free preview of chapter 4 of ‘On Latin Adverbs’ only gives the first page, but it notes:

If one compares the definition of the adverb given by Priscian and other Roman grammarians (viz.: the adverb is an invariable word, the meaning of which is added to that of the verb just as the meaning of the adjective is added to that of the noun) with the usual definition in modern Latin grammars - as well as with grammars of modern languages - the main difference turns out to be that nowadays adverbs are said to modify adjectives and other adverbs as well.

and people have been complaining that the term is unhelpfully named since at least the 16th century :slight_smile:

“Therefore not only is the term ‘adverb’ a bad construction of the ancient grammarians, but also the definition they gave is unwise, for it is not only a modifier of the verb, but also of the nomen”

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So this is basically saying that I have been tricked all my life :joy_cat:

OK, I give up now.

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So, one passage has 巨大さ and I’m wondering if that’s a bit of slang on ロレンス’s part? I’m used to -さ at the end of 形容詞 but can it also be used with 形容動詞 like this?

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Don’t think it’s slang. Collins J-E has it as a separate entry; Daijisen’s entry for 巨大 has a note " [派生]きょだいさ[名]".

I guess that Daijisen marks those na-adjectives which can take -sa (or which commonly do? IDK) with 派生 notes like that – its entry for 大胆 has one too, for instance.

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I don’t have much to say about this part, except that 脂汗 is probably the grossest Japanese word I know, and I see it surprisingly often. :thinking:

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This book is good practice for stretching my ability to keep an entire sentence in context in my head at once. For example

その芯から怒っていることがひしひしと伝わる迫力に気圧されながらロレンスが尋ねると、ホロはその細い肩をいからせながらうなずいた。

going past 尋ねると、the beginning of the sentence started fading away…took me a couple tries to get through.

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Lot's of questions (mostly dialect)

教会には何度かひどい目にあわされたから。突き出されるのはごめんじゃ。しかし

ただ、そのためには時折麦の実りを悪くせんとならぬ時があった。

しかし、あの村の連中は時折麦の実りを悪くするとそれをわっちの気まぐれだなどと言いよる。

Is the の in these basically な? The one after ただ doesn’t fit as な quite as well as the others I think, but in general it just seems like filler (maybe with light emphasis).


うでだけでかんべんしてくりゃれ

I was going to ask if くりゃれ was basically くれ. But くりゃる is apparently in my Yomichan dictionary with a meaning similar to くれる and even uses the same kanji as くれる, so I’m going to go ahead and assume they are the same. :joy:


I saw a bunch of わっちは this section. Doesn’t that contradict Alo’s theory that わっちゃあ was used to mean わっちは? Or are both the same meaning? わっちは apparently appears 52 times in this book, while わっちゃあ just appears 3 times, all in this first chapter.


あの時の約束も、わっちは十分果たしんす

Is this just 果たしたんです?


もしもぬしが麦を持ってパスロエの村に帰るでも、またわっちを教会に突き出すでもなければ、わっちはしばしぬしの世話になりたい。

Isn’t 帰るでも a bit weird here? I’d normally expect to see 帰っても. I do sometimes see てでも, but I’m not sure I’ve ever seen でも after the dictionary form of a verb. It is Holo talking though, so who knows what’s acceptable…


例えばとらわれのひめはかくやといった感じとか。

What is かくや? I can’t find it in a dictionary.


逃げやせんよ

Is this just 逃げません? Or more like 逃げはしない? I know せん can be used in place of しない in Kansai dialect, but in that case I wasn’t sure how to treat the や, so my best guess was は.

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Summary

A lot of her dialogue feels like just slurred vowels in general. I suppose there’s also the possibility that it’s intentionally like that because it’s filtered through ロレンス’s POV.

That one I parsed as くれる or even a mash of くれ, あれ with the latter being filler.

Yeah, it’s either more slurred vowels or ロレンス getting better at understanding her. If her speech gradually changes through the story then it’s got to be the POV thing.

My IOS dictionary has this entry

There’s an entry in Jisho for 斯くやあらん as a set phrase meaning “it must be like this”.

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Same here, with added difficulty if there are words I need to lookup. I’ll usually run through and do the lookups then try to keep the meaning in mind as I run through the sentence. It’s a stretch for sure. lol

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  • The closest equivalent to Holo’s の ending I thought was ね.

  • This entry says くりゃれ=ください:

そして命令形の「呉りゃれ」となると「ください」「~してください」という意味になるわけだ。

  • I think わっちゃあ still means わっちは just more casual
    わっちゃとは - コトバンク

  • 果たしんす I think means 果たします I took ありんす as あります so 〜んす=〜ます

I’m curious about 帰るでも and 逃げやせんよ too. I’m going to ask on HiNative.

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ね and な do have some overlap, so I could see either/both of them being right.

Well considering くださる is an honorific version of くれる, I guess that works too. So it’s probably fine to think of it as くれ or ください.

Only issue I have with this is that I think the sentence makes more sense in past tense. Otherwise your analysis seems reasonable since I do think you’re right that ありんす is あります. So maybe I’m just misinterpreting the sentence.

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I already got answers from native speakers! :star_struck:

帰るでも

現代語として正しいです。
この場合の「でも」は「〜でも〜でもなく」とつながっていて、意味としてはorになります。(not AorB) 意味としては「もしも、ぬしが村に帰る または わっちを突きだす というどちらの予定でもないならば わっちはぬしの世話になりたい」になります。

逃げやせんよ

「逃げはしない」というのは、「逃げない」(逃げることはしない)という意味です。
「逃げやせんよ」というのは、「逃げはしないよ」という意味ですが、主に漫画などで老人のキャラクターが使うことが多いです。通常の文章や日常会話ではほぼ使わず、ドラマや漫画の登場人物の個性を強調させる意図で使われます。

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For 〜しんす, here’s an answer I got, which says it’s a catch all, maybe? AHH

Q: Does 〜しんす=〜します?
「あの時の約束も、わっちは十分果たしんす」
「わっちのやけどを冷たい雨で冷やしんす」
「強がりを言うのなら、せめて震える手を隠しんす」

A: 漫画のなかでの表現で、現代では一般的には使いません。
あの時の約束も、わたしは十分果たした。
わたしのやけどを冷たい雨で冷やしましょう。
強がりを言うのなら、せめて震える手を隠しなさいよ。
様々な意味にもなる女性の語尾です。

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I’ll need to read the sentence again tomorrow (when it’s not an hour past when I should be asleep) and see if it makes more sense with this explanation.

So sounds like yes to this meaning 逃げはしない, cool. The manga/drama note is fine and all, but I wasn’t exactly planning to start throwing around やせん in conversation anyway. :joy:

Wow, was not expecting that! :exploding_head:

(Goo just says in means ます and even gives an example of んした for past tense, but that doesn’t mean this answer is wrong. As I said, the sentence really felt like past tense, so んす being allowed for past tense would be reassuring for that at least.)

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I asked this too! I got three! responses.

「ね」「な」のどちらで置き換えても意味は変わりません。この「の」はいわゆる役割語と呼ばれるもので、老人が話しているような印象を読者に与えるために使われます。
マンガ、物語、アニメではよく見られますが、現実にこのような話し方をするお年寄りはほぼいません。(方言だと違うかもしれませんが)
「な」を使うと男性的で、ぶっきらぼう、あるいは勇ましい感じになります。
ひどい目にあわされたからな。
しかしな、
「ね」を使うと中性的で、丁寧な印象となります。
ひどい目にあわされたからね。
しかしね、
現実の一般的なお年寄りが使うのは「な」か「ね」です。

なくても意味は通じます。
現代標準語的には「~ね」「~な」です。
しかし、全体的に方言でお年寄りが話しているような印象のセリフですので、ここだけ「~ね」や「~な」に入れ替えたら、変な文になります。

It is a part of the concept called “Yakuwarigo” (役割語). In Japanese, particularly fictions, a certain type of characters are expected to use unique ways of expressions so that readers can understand what kind of characters they are without detailed explanation. 「しかしの」, and 「からの」are a part of what is called “Hakase-go” (博士語). I can tell the character saying the lines above is an old male, and probably a wise guy who is respected in the community, just by seeing the expressions used, even though you did not give me any hint where this quotation is from.
I do not know if you can learn about Yakuwarigo in English or other languages, but if you keep on reading Japanese fictions, soon or later you will encounter a lot of them.

So based on the answers I asked today, apparently everyone on HiNative thinks Holo must be this old wise man in a fiction story…which…is pretty close!! :rofl:

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I love how they are trying so hard to caution me against speaking like Holo.

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She’s supposed to be ancient already in the narrative, so I think it fits.

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Poor Holo! :rofl:

By the way, I usually associate this speaking style with older men in anime too. That’s partly why I wanted to double check Holo’s dialogue, just to make sure it was actually the same thing.

The character I associate most with this speaking style is Tippy from ご注文はうさぎですか. Tippy is the main character’s grandfather and uses a drawling のう at the end of sentences, not to mention わし and じゃ. So classic anime “old guy” speak.

Tippy, just your typical old guy

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