Wanikani asks for meaning, which I type in japanese

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#55

@Leebo Did you see that my hope was not that wanikani would simply accept the text string “hitori”?

I’m not desiring that I (or anyone) would just “get away with” rote memorization of pronunciations without learning how things correspond to English. Rather, I was hoping that WK (or a plugin) might treat such misfires with roughly the same “try again” bounce I see after typing the onyomi when kunyomi is what’s expected.

Indeed, I was fascinated to realize this slippage (of spontaneously articulating the meaning in Japanese) has been happening with exactly those words that feel natural and familiar enough that their meaning just happens (as it were) within Japanese. It feels odd that this threshold (which is a really fun moment with many expressions, actually :grinning: ) becomes a (minor) source of anxiety rather than a friendly “oops”. “Bouncing” that kind of mis-directed answer would be much less discouraging than buzzing it wrong.

Is there a pedagogical danger in bouncing that kind of “mistake”? It’s not as though, going around in Japan (or anywhere other than a WK drill), I’m likely to confuse a translation-into-English task with a reading-out-loud in Japanese task, since they’re such different contexts. Drilling us to be vigilant not to mis-step in this way (about which of those 2 tasks is being requested) doesn’t seem especially vital.

At any rate, I do appreciate hearing all the ways people find work-arounds for this kind of experience.

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#56

Those are different to me.

When the kunyomi/onyomi thing happens, you’ve answered correctly, but they want what they consider the most common/useful reading before you continue.

In this case, you haven’t answered correctly (in my view, since the reading does not equal the meaning). You’ve just made an understandable error.

Other understandable errors (such as putting the onyomi in for a kunyomi vocab) are not given the same warning as with kanji, as understandable as they are.

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#57

I never noticed that readings and meanings have black and white background :disappointed_relieved:

Don’t feel bad, I never noticed either.

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#58

Not sure if this was mentioned, but just as a quick answer, a big part of the reason this is the way it is is it’s helping you from going into a pseudo-hypnotic state, where you stop learning. Little things like this keep you conscious, and although it’s a bit irritating, you’ll get into the swing of it quite quickly.

As for color blindness (and various shades thereof… see what I did there?), that’s on our list to provide a couple of different color palette that should help. That being said, this is Koichi we’re talking about so it could take a lifetime.

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#59

@acm2010 Thanks for your reply…

It’s not that I specifically want to input the romaji. It’s simply that having to be so much “on my guard” not to trip over this task-difference doesn’t feel central to learning Japanese. I just want WK not to treat this mistake as equivalent to writing “hitotsu” when it should be “hitori” or writing “entrance” when I should write “person.” Those are the mistakes that matter, because they reflect lack of progress in reading and understanding Japanese.

Hm. :thinking: Maybe part of why this is frustrating is that I’m an intermediate learner trying to get to the place in WK where I’m actually seeing some challenging content, and it’s (as everyone knows) slow to slog through the SRS process while getting to my prior learning-level. So I’m tempted to go along typing and submitting pretty fast, because it’s … necessarily pretty mindless (or pseudo-hypnotic, as @koichi says) at this point (and I’m a parent, and have a day job, and…). And when when this is the kind of thing that I get “wrong,” It’s hardly unbearable, but it feel gratuitously irritating. I wonder whether there are other intermediate students of Japanese who drift away from WK, during the 3 trial levels, for such reasons.

I could do what @riccyjay does (adding the romaji to the meaning field), and I appreciate hearing these ideas… yet I’m surprised that this kind of thing isn’t a common-enough experience to warrant being either a plugin or an option within WK’s own interface.

#60

It’s common. It’s just that most of us have found that this particular mistake only happens during the beginner levels and after you get the hang of it it’s just a minor inconvenience.

Maybe it’s the way that you phrased it, but from the OP I thought you WERE asking for WK to accept the reading as a correct meaning and perhaps other people understood it this way.

I would say that adding a “bounce” or whatever effect when entering the reading instead of the meaning wouldn’t be a big deal but I guess that’s also debatable. In the end I think that for people with intermediate and advanced knowledge of kanji the first levels of WK will be annoying no matter what. Maybe someday they will address this issue but it doesn’t seem to be in the near future.

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#61

I never noticed it either. So it seems it’s not as obvious as some are claiming. And I just did a review session and even knowing it and wanting to check, I still didn’t notice (was too concentrated on my answers, forgot I wanted to check).

#62

@Leebo Of course in a strict sense “hitori” is not the correct answer when WK wants the English translation (which it calls “the meaning”).

I also think you have a good point when you say that typing on-yomi when WK has marked kun-yomi as primary (or vice versa) is a less direct error (and one that is not especially likely to be a product of answering quickly), so perhaps I should appreciate that what I’m talking about (spelling the meaning in Japanese) is an intermediate case. Surely you agree that it’s not on par with confusing “enter” with “person” or confusing “hitori” with “hitotsu,” right?

The thing is, the kind of “mistake” at issue here is simply not going to mess up my actual competence in coping with Japanese. There’s no real-life interaction where people are in danger of getting these two tasks confused (unlike, say, confusing two similar kanji or failing to recognize that a kanji is embedded in a compound, and pronouncing it incorrectly as a result – both real-world challenges).

I understand WK wants to keep us juggling translation-balls and pronunciation-balls simultaneously in not-predictable order (and I see why this may be a worthy pedagogical goal). One side-effect of this approach is that WK needs us to pay attention to which kind of thing is being asked.

Still, a “bounce” would be much less harsh than a “wrong” when someone experiences a Japanese word as the meaning of a Kanji compound.

The Japanese word/phrase really is one way to articulate the meaning of the Kanji, after all. Ironically, despite causing a “wrong” score, that synapse starts firing exactly at a good moment in learning.

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#63

So do you advise us to buy the lifetime right now? I guess I better get prepared if I’ll have to wait a lifetime.

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#64

Sure, they’re not the same kind of “wrong”, but to me they are still “wrong.” Even if we’re talking about using the Japanese word to define the Japanese word.

This was hashed out earlier, but we just disagree on that, so I don’t think there’s much reason to continue. Using the word itself to define the word just seems to be… off to me, but in the end, the ignore script is entirely within your own hands to decide how to use.

#65

Welcome to anything that requires learning, I guess :sweat_smile:

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#66

Actually, it’s using the Japanese word to define the meaning of the Japanese graphical representation of the word…

#67

I think I can see where you’re trying to go with this, because words in Japanese have different ways to be written, but ひとり and 一人 and 独り are all words, and if you’re going to define 一人 in Japanese, ひとり is not enough, because the two words with the same reading have different meanings.

But still, even if it wasn’t the case that there are other ひとり’s, the kanji compound is still “a word”.

#68

Not really that’s still it’s pronunciation. For example in English class if you got nonchalant on the test, you can’t answer with ‘nonchalant’ the answer would be it’s definition, (of a person or manner) feeling or appearing casually calm and relaxed, or a synonym, calm composed, ect. Its the same thing here, you can’t answer what is the meaning of 一人 with 一人.

#69

@jskaa Thanks for this thoughtful and supportive response.

Yes, it can happen that people experience little sympathy for a problem that they’ve already muddled through, especially if they associate their earlier struggles with having earned some progress. I believe I’ve also seen such research, and the same psychology drives phenomena like hazing…

But also, I do think brains and experiences simply differ, too. And sometimes people simply have a hard time imagining that something can be genuinely frustrating for another person, when it seems so eye-rollingly easy to them. (I’ve been on both sides of that kind of misunderstanding, I admit! I always found math to be easy, my kid thinks it’s hard, and I have to slow down and listen and find new ways to visualize and practice, rather than to say, “How much more obvious could it be? We went over this!”)

I feel obligated to offer feedback here partly because I also design interfaces (for databases), and I would want to know the reactions of early users. Sometimes people write feedback to vent or pick fights, and sometimes it’s really an attempt to add a perspective.

If early users refrain from feedback because they feel new, then the only people in the conversation are people who are already so used to the interface that it just feels appropriate to them. Meanwhile some minority – for whom it still hasn’t come to feel right – will have dropped away.

Some FAQs here imply that if someone drops away from WK, it must be because they don’t have the patience for really learning Japanese. But surely there can be other reasons too: each person has to figure out where their money and their hours will be most effectively invested. I think it’s generally better to try speaking up than to drift away quietly. (Not that this one issue is that serious for me!)

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#70

@elispringer I think I misunderstood that you wanted the romanji as correct, at least you argued to English is only one way to understand the word meaning.

I think the reason for not shaking is (apart from actually wanting to be “on guard”) that it is not so easy to integrate it with the error tolerance for meanings. A word can have several meanings in WK, and each word is checked against a different number of typos you can do to. What happens when the kana can be typed differently (for example shi, si), or both are already the same (like kimono or tsunami), or the kana looks like a meaning with typos? Sounds like a paradise for bugs, at least you have to explicitly handle exceptions. [Together with user synonyms this will be a nightmare]

From your original post:

Wouldn’t your problem be solved when you just remembered that for WK “meaning = translation”? WK also calls some things radicals that aren’t really radicals …

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#71

I didn’t read the previous posts.

Are you arguing that there should be a “ooo, close” shake for answers similar to the meanings, readings, similar kanjis, similar spellings for all items?
I think you’re better off using Anki, where you can self determine if your answer is good or not.

Usually Wanikani is looking for one specific answer. It must match what the database has a possible answers. If you don’t get it right, you have to study what Wanikani wants as right.
You can add your own synonyms as alternate answers. I think users whose first language isn’t English put their own meanings and make their own mnemonics.

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#72

Well, @Leebo, I don’t think you’l be persuaded, but for the sake of anyone who cares to follow the question I’ll clarify how it coheres for me:

Kanji are Chinese idiographic symbols. They mean things (ideas, concepts), and when Japanese people adopted them, they connected those characters (based on their meaning) to words they already knew, and/or dovetailed helpful Chinese words into their spoken Japanese. (Some Chinese compounds, like 一人 and 大人, got mapped onto whole words in Japanese based on matching meanings – or do you object to the word “meaning” for that relation?)

The meaning of a written kanji compound like 一人 can be expressed in spoken Japanese, as well as in various Chinese dialects, and of course its meaning can also be expressed in English or in French or in Turkish, etc. (I can imagine you’ll suggest that in the context of WK, the deeply cross-linguistic origin and function of the characters is to be disregarded. They just are Japanese now. Shrug.)

Peace… thanks for devoting time to this discussion.

#73

一人 is an interesting example, as I pointed out, since it does have another word with a different meaning (or nuance at least) that has the same reading.

Since 一人 and 独り are both read ひとり, can you really say that ひとり is sufficient to function as the definition for either of those? If someone says まだ独りです, they don’t mean that they are “still one person”, but that they are “still unmarried” or “still alone”. Even though it sounds identical to まだ一人です.

So I guess it’s like… Okay 一人 can mean ひとり if you want to phrase it that way, but then we need to check your understanding of ひとり, since it has multiple definitions.

Regarding the origin of kanji… I’m aware of the history of kanji and the point that malauren was trying to make, but I don’t agree that the kanji compounds themselves can’t be referred to as words.

#74

@AngelTenshi,

You point out that it’s silly to answer that the meaning of “nonchalant” is “nonchalant.” Indeed. (It’s true, actually, that every word means the same as itself, but entirely trivial and deserves no credit on any exam seeking to gauge understanding.)

Yet if I say the meaning of 一人 is ひとり it’s pretty different from saying the meaning of “nonchalant” is “nonchalant”… There are lots of people in the world who can read and understand 一人 without knowing that Japanese people express that meaning as ひとり. (The same can’t be said for “nonchalant” and “nonchalant.”)

The whole reason Chinese characters take the form they do is to be a meaning-holder that does not depend on written pronunciations of this or that language. Of course there are divergent lineages and uniquely Japanese compounds. But these characters have meaning independently of Japanese. Do you disagree? :thinking:

Once ひとり becomes a meaningful expression in my mind, directly associated with certain feelings and experiences, it makes perfect sense to see 一人 and see that it means ひとり (in Japanese).