# The quick or short Language Questions Thread (not grammar) **URL:** \ **Category:** Questions\ **Created:** [February 10, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773 "2018-02-10T14:45:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lowrey](https://cdck-file-uploads-global.s3.dualstack.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/wanikanicommunity/original/3X/f/d/fd4c154120954695f788402f3bcf4e616499bc2d.png) [@Lowrey](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Lowrey)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/44 "2018-05-30T15:52:39Z")
QQ: Is there a pattern for when 人 is read as じん as opposed to にん? This is starting to cost me a lot of time on my reviews and I can’t seem to recall learning about a pattern for this. Thanks in advance for the help. ---
**Author:** ![EiriMatsu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/eirimatsu/32/70498_2.png) [@EiriMatsu](https://community.wanikani.com/u/EiriMatsu)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/45 "2018-05-30T16:23:10Z")
Yup, there is a general guideline! When referring to people (usually ending in 人), じん describes people themselves, such as race, build, and personality. にん, on the other hand, describes “people things,” such as occupations, lifestyles, and roles. A 日本人 is someone who is Japanese by blood, and a 変人 is someone whose very nature is strange. A 役人 is a public officer, someone who works for the community (but could easily quit), and a 証人 only maintains such as status until the crime they witnessed is solved and the trial complete. Other uses don’t correlate exactly, but similarly. じん refers to the conceptual side of humanity, while にん refers to the more physical part. In general though, じん is more common, as other kanji serve to mirror but more closely represent the side of “person” that にん illustrates (者 and 手, for example), so, if you were to assume a reading, it’s safer to assume じん while simply remembering when it is にん. **For a question of my own!** In the game I’m playing, I ran across a color jukugo. The font makes the kanji unclear. From what I see, the left side is 食 and the right side is either 台 or 合 (the right side looks like an even triangle). It is in a compound of X色, leading me to believe it’s 飴色, and Google searches prove that the usually slightly different 食 radical can appear normal in some fonts. The right side, however, throws me off. As a note, this color is describing an unstated alcoholic beverage of citrus influence. To clarify my current thoughts in short terms: [食台]色 = 飴色 (font has a standard 食 and right side is a closed triangle). [食合]色 = ??? (looks the closest but current research has yielded no matching kanji). Am I insane, blind, or think my guess of 飴色 is on-spot? ---
**Author:** ![Syphus](https://cdck-file-uploads-global.s3.dualstack.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/wanikanicommunity/original/3X/f/d/fd4c154120954695f788402f3bcf4e616499bc2d.png) [@Syphus](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Syphus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/46 "2018-05-30T17:31:33Z")
> [@EiriMatsu](#): > > When referring to people (usually ending in 人), じん describes people themselves, such as race, build, and personality. にん, on the other hand, describes “people things,” such as occupations, lifestyles, and roles. > > A 日本人 is someone who is Japanese by blood, and a 変人 is someone whose very nature is strange. > > A 役人 is a public officer, someone who works for the community (but could easily quit), and a 証人 only maintains such as status until the crime they witnessed is solved and the trial complete. > > Other uses don’t correlate exactly, but similarly. And which one do 人形 and 人参 fall under? I really think this is a fake explanation that people like to shoehorn into needing a “real” answer, when the answer is “just memorize” them. 飴色 sounds closest to me, it also makes sense for that description. ---
**Author:** ![seanblue](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/seanblue/32/579844_2.png) [@seanblue](https://community.wanikani.com/u/seanblue)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/47 "2018-05-30T17:35:00Z")
> [@Syphus](#): > > And which one do 人形 and 人参 fall under? I really think this is a fake explanation that people like to shoehorn into needing a “real” answer, when the answer is “just memorize” them. The above explanation (right or wrong) generally says to only look at words _ending_ in 人, so that’s not a valid counterpoint (even if this time it wasn’t mentioned). ---
**Author:** ![Leebo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/leebo/32/439476_2.png) [@Leebo](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Leebo)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/48 "2018-05-30T17:43:33Z")
It’s not hard to find ones that, at least the way I understand the explanation, don’t seem to fit. 詩人 - poet 本人 - the person himself 新人 - newcomer 軍人 - soldier 芸能人 - person in the entertainment industry 隣人 - neighbor 囚人 - prisoner 悪人 - bad person To me, each of those is the opposite reading from the one the guideline prescribes. I stopped looking after 3 pages of 人-ending words. ---
**Author:** ![Syphus](https://cdck-file-uploads-global.s3.dualstack.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/wanikanicommunity/original/3X/f/d/fd4c154120954695f788402f3bcf4e616499bc2d.png) [@Syphus](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Syphus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/49 "2018-05-30T17:49:25Z")
If the “rule” only works for about 25% of the cases, what good is it? ---
**Author:** ![seanblue](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/seanblue/32/579844_2.png) [@seanblue](https://community.wanikani.com/u/seanblue)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/50 "2018-05-30T18:13:30Z")
I was just pointing out that your “counterexamples” weren’t counterexamples. For the record, the only part of those “rules” that I’ve seen to work enough to be useful is occupations. Note that I’m not saying that にん implies occupation, but rather occupation implies にん the vast majority of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Belthazar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/belthazar/32/4469_2.png) [@Belthazar](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Belthazar)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/51 "2018-05-30T21:44:00Z")
> [@EiriMatsu](#): > > [食台]色 = 飴色 (font has a standard 食 and right side is a closed triangle). > [食合]色 = 飴色 (looks the closest but current research has yielded no matching kanji). Those right-hand sides are both exactly the same. I’m so confused… have you not found the kanji you’re looking for? What precisely is the issue here? Maybe give us a picture of the word in question? Yes, sometimes 食 looks different when it’s being a radical. ---
**Author:** ![Naphthalene](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/naphthalene/32/219185_2.png) [@Naphthalene](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Naphthalene)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/52 "2018-05-30T22:58:28Z")
I actually use that “rule” to build mnemonics. Ex: you’re an 悪人 now, but I will change your way. → can change, reading is にん Being a 詩人 comes from your very nature, they can beat you up, they can lock you up, but poetry will always be inside your heart. → cannot change, reading is じん That was actually useful, so far, but I wouldn’t call it a rule indeed. By the way, a rule that is correct 25% of the time is good (if there’s only two choices): reverse it, and you’re right 75% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![qiwi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/qiwi/32/35169_2.png) [@qiwi](https://community.wanikani.com/u/qiwi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/53 "2018-05-31T00:30:55Z")
Perhaps this is a silly question, but is there a trick to typing Japanese names that use unusual kanji? I know that most Japanese keyboards suggest the most common variations of the most common names, but if it’s a special case just typing in the pronunciation doesn’t seem to work at all (assuming I want to use the correct kanji instead of kana or romaji and can’t just highlight and copy it). So far, I’ve usually ended up searching for the correct kanji in a dictionary and copy&pasted it but that’s so…inefficient… Is there something I’m missing or is this just how it is? ---
**Author:** ![Leebo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/leebo/32/439476_2.png) [@Leebo](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Leebo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/54 "2018-05-31T00:34:00Z")
What about typing other readings for the kanji? My girlfriend’s name is somewhat uncommon, so she often has to enter the onyomi to get the first character to appear. Then you can assign the reading you want to that combo in the IME settings. ---
**Author:** ![qiwi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/qiwi/32/35169_2.png) [@qiwi](https://community.wanikani.com/u/qiwi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/55 "2018-05-31T00:38:18Z")
Yeah that would work, assuming I know the other readings. So I guess researching/looking them up is the only option until I know most readings by heart, huh? I was hoping there is a shortcut, but that’s fine haha ---
**Author:** ![Leebo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/leebo/32/439476_2.png) [@Leebo](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Leebo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/56 "2018-05-31T00:50:08Z")
Yeah, I suppose that makes a difference. She can describe her kanji to any Japanese person easily even though it’s a Kanken level 1 kanji, because they all know the basic radicals and onyomi. You’ll notice that you can start to guess the onyomi for kanji you haven’t learned yet over time, because certain elements within kanji are used for their pronunciation rather than their meaning. Like how all of these have the onyomi of そ 祖租粗狙阻組 ---
**Author:** ![qiwi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/qiwi/32/35169_2.png) [@qiwi](https://community.wanikani.com/u/qiwi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 12:58am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/57 "2018-05-31T00:58:12Z")
Ah okay, I see! Right, I think I’ve read about that a while ago. Thanks for bringing it up! It’s a lot easier to remember a pattern and its exceptions than remembering them individually; I’ll pay more attention to those. But I guess that answers my question. Thanks for the quick reply! ---
**Author:** ![seanblue](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/seanblue/32/579844_2.png) [@seanblue](https://community.wanikani.com/u/seanblue)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 1:16am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/58 "2018-05-31T01:16:51Z")
If you want a constant reminder to pay attention to these patterns, install this script. > [@\[Userscript\] Keisei 形声 Semantic-Phonetic Composition](https://community.wanikani.com/t/userscript-keisei-%E5%BD%A2%E5%A3%B0-semantic-phonetic-composition-v166/21479): > > warning This is a third-party script/app and is not created by the WaniKani team. By using this, you understand that it can stop working at any time or be discontinued indefinitely. Keisei Semantic-Phonetic Composition by acm I am proud to release the stable version of my first script, Keisei Semantic-Phonetic Composition! Installation Instructions Get Tampermonkey (installation instructions [in this thread](https://community.wanikani.com/t/visual-guide-on-how-to-install-a-userscript/12136)) Click on the [installation link](https://github.com/mwil/wanikani-userscripts/raw/master/wanikani-phonetic-compounds/wk_keisei.user.js) (Tampermonkey should auto-detect .user.js files) I… ---
**Author:** ![Sandpiper](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/sandpiper/32/221294_2.png) [@Sandpiper](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Sandpiper)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 1:19am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/59 "2018-05-31T01:19:47Z")
I adore that script. I had started noticing these patterns before but it really helps to have it all laid out. So much less work learning new readings now ---
**Author:** ![qiwi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/qiwi/32/35169_2.png) [@qiwi](https://community.wanikani.com/u/qiwi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 1:22am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/60 "2018-05-31T01:22:55Z")
Oh that’s awesome! Thanks a lot! : D ---
**Author:** ![Dorotheian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/dorotheian/32/181732_2.png) [@Dorotheian](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Dorotheian)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 2:36am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/61 "2018-05-31T02:36:12Z")
Sometimes I’ll type a two-kanji vocabulary word to get the correct kanji to appear. That works too. Like if I want the じん in 人参 (ninjin) I can type “ninjin” and delete 人, but I can’t type “jin” and get 参 because it’s not common enough. ---
**Author:** ![EiriMatsu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/eirimatsu/32/70498_2.png) [@EiriMatsu](https://community.wanikani.com/u/EiriMatsu)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/62 "2018-05-31T03:05:47Z")
> [@EiriMatsu](#): > > じん refers to the conceptual side of humanity, while にん refers to the more physical part. A doll has the physical attributes of a human, thus using にん. 人参 comes from the Chinese for ginseng, referencing how the forked shape of the roots looks like the legs of a human, thus using にん _because_ of the meaning despite the Chinese pronunciation itself leaning towards じんしん（or じんじん, I suppose). The very first phrase of the part of my post you quoted indicates I was referring to words that END in 人 and/or refer to people. 人形 and 人参 do neither. > [@Leebo](#): > > 詩人 - poet - **Definitely arguable. Historically, in many cultures, poets and bards were synonymous and a class in any cultures employing a hierarchy, usually of low class. In addition, having the skills necessary required a life dedicated to the trade that left you unskilled or qualified to do much else.** > 本人 - the person himself - **Changing depending on the person in question, therefore equivalent functionally to a role.** > 新人 - newcomer - **Honestly, I have nothing on this one, but it does have a secondary meaning referring to the human species that came before us.** > 軍人 - soldier - **Soldiers used to be a class in most hierachy-based societies and contrasts 戦士 which would be someone who is a soldier by trade. Modern usage, of course, would be synonymous.** > 芸能人 - person in the entertainment industry - **Entertainers used to be a class in hierachy-based societies. Many people could fall into the class, but escaping wasn’t easy.** > 隣人 - neighbor - **Until the recent era, moving wasn’t really much of thing, as one can see by the etymology of last names. Unless you get married into another family, you and your neighbers are going to be working your land until you die.** > 囚人 - prisoner - **In the Edo period, prisoners were often tattooed or given punishments working essentially as slaves, potentially for life.** > 悪人 - bad person - **I’ve personally never heard あくにん used to refer to someone’s personality; rather, I’ve heard it used to indicate a villain or “doer of bad things.” 悪い人 or 性格が悪い is usually used to my experience to describe a bad person.** Reasoning in bold. Maybe I should reconsider the exact words I used to define them. じん assumes little to no ability to alter the circumstances, while にん change is likely or possible. That any better? > [@Belthazar](#): > > Those right-hand sides are both exactly the same. > > I’m so confused… have you not found the kanji you’re looking for? What precisely is the issue here? Maybe give us a picture of the word in question? Yes, sometimes 食 looks different when it’s being a radical. My bad. I made some re-ordering edits when I wrote that, and forgot to change that to ???. 'Twas quite early in the morning (late at night). Fixed now. > [@Syphus](#): > > “rule” I myself never used “rule,” but guideline. If I must provide a definition to clarify my intention: " information intended to advise people on how something should be done or what something should be" from Cambridge. I’m also curious about where you reach 25%, as almost every WK usage of 人 applies. Even assuming my justifications for every example @Leebo provided are rebutted, that is still over 50%. ---
**Author:** ![Leebo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/wanikanicommunity/user_avatar/community.wanikani.com/leebo/32/439476_2.png) [@Leebo](https://community.wanikani.com/u/Leebo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 3:12am UTC](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773/63 "2018-05-31T03:12:12Z")
> [@Naphthalene](#): > > By the way, a rule that is correct 25% of the time is good (if there’s only two choices): reverse it, and you’re right 75% of the time. There’s more than two choices though, in this case. [Previous page](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773.md?page=2) [Next page](https://community.wanikani.com/t/the-quick-or-short-language-questions-thread-not-grammar/27773.md?page=4)