As a “returner” at lv20, something was off. This was part of it
+1 to bringing back on’yomi for kanji. The mental separation helped. I would expect to be able to take an educated guess at unknown jukugo words of which I have learned the kanji on WK.
Aren’t there existing WK competitor systems that more rigorously stick to the proposed separation? It’s not like WK’s “moat” is super big here.
For me personally, I can’t imagine for example wanting to learn いん as the kanji reading for 飲.
I get wanting there to Be A Clearer System, but imo part of the problem is that as with all languages, the “system” consists of so many little exceptions that it’s better to let the patterns dawn on you (eg “lots of the kanji that have 亡 as a component also have ぼう as an on’yomi”) than to try and rigidly force them onto reality.
Anyway, sorry to be the “nobody asked” voice for the status quo
my main issue with any reading changes is that it messes up my memorization, because i already had the other reading drilled into my head, and it’s hard to remember the new one.
Yes, that is going to happen to most folks. Happens to me. But it then imposes quite a restraint an any product/system where they can never fix a mistake or make any improvements (not wanting to get into whether any specific change is an “improvement” or not as that is generally subjective anyways) once they have their first user since that change will upset/mess with what that user is used to.
Over the few years I have been using WK it can be amusing to watch the threads of X users upset about a change/new feature when there was another thread of Y users asking for exactly that change/new feature. Given that I work in the software industry, that has been present from the user/customer base of every project I have worked on for the past 30+ years
strong agreement to preferring on’yomi from me too.
like, i get it to some extent when it comes to situations where kanji are overwhelmingly used only/mostly in their kun’yomi form but i feel like the whole benefit of learning kanji is to learn the building blocks of the language which can be applied to words you don’t know as well. right now i feel like there’s too many kanji where even within wanikani you’re expected to eventually learn the on’yomi without teaching it to you directly.
yes, learning the on’yomi is a pain sometimes, especially when kun’yomi is used often. what’s even more of a pain is having a character you think you know, only to later learn that in fact you don’t know and you have to reshuffle the whole thing in your brain into what it actually means.
it’s probaly the one major problem i have with the program currently that its so inconsistent - to me, it feels like going to a coding class that’s supposed to teach you the basic patterns you use as building blocks everywhere, but then proceeds to skip over those basics. its not that skipping over the basic patterns isn’t helpful when building things, but it’s not the point of taking that class. likewise, i’m not expecting wanikani to go into the linguistic root of every character except where relevant (青葉 being a good example of where it is helpful to do exactly that as an exception).
that’s not to say the program’s bad - its great, i’m making great strides in my ability to read the language despite doing it next to a full time job - but even an optional setting which we prefer would be very nice.
Unsure if I’ve commented here, but I do also agree that it’s VERY dumb to be teaching kunyomi as the kanji reading unless there’s 0 chance the onyomi reading will be encountered. I think the threshold should be VERY high for teaching kunyomi instead of onyomi, like WAY higher than it is right now. Being able to know onyomi readings means that, for the vast majority of common words I haven’t seen before, but which have kanji I know, I can guess the readings of. If you start me off with kunyomi, I have no chance in hell of that.
In addition, OP mentioned that a lot of kanji are also standalone words, and many of them use kunyomi when they’re standalone. Learning onyomi with the kanji, and kunyomi with the standalone word is far more efficient than learning kunyomi twice, and then being blindsided with onyomi later in a bunch of other words, and then wondering why, if onyomi is so common, it wasn’t taught at all?
Adding my support to stop having the kunyomi readings for the kanji. As others have said, it often creates redundancy in the kanji vs. vocab cards. It also makes it harder to learn the onyomi readings. It is frustrating. Like just today, I got yet another vocabulary word with an onyomi reading of a kanji (答) that had only been introduced with kunyomi for both the kanji and the vocab.
Yes, I know sometimes there are multiples of each or other exceptions, but the vast majority have a most common onyomi and most common kunyomi reading that should be introduced as kanji and vocab, respectively.
It’s bad enough I get stupid ultra beginner kana-only words taking up my time when I specifically got WaniKani to study kanji. Now it’s wasting my time introducing the kunyomi readings twice.
I also tend to think that it would be more consistent to always teach the on’yomi reading for kanji, but it seems to be a design choice by Wanikani and is not that uncommon. I looked at the kanji readings with the Wanikani API, and there are 371 out of 2087 kanji where the primary reading is kun’yomi. There are even 3 where it is nanori. So that’s about 18%.
While not being an absolutist, insisting on teaching the kun’yomi as the “kanji reading” in 100% of the cases, I do think that it is pointless at least in those cases where the kun’yomi reading is always accompanied by okurigana. Why?
The kun’yomi itself isn’t even a word without the okurigana.
When they are present, okurigana provide a useful “reading hint” for the kanji when you encounter the word in the wild. (At least for me they do, providing I was previously exposed to that word somewhere.)
One minor corner case with always teaching the on’yomi as the kanji reading as a rule is that some common kanji do not have an on’yomi.
A few that come to mind for me (but almost certainly not all of the ones that WK teaches): 込, 畑, 枠, 匂. That being said, the list of common kanji where this is true seems to be quite minor. It feels to me that it wouldn’t be a bad compromise at all to have the kanji reading be the on’yomi as a rule, except making it very clear when the reading is an exception to that (such as when there is no on’yomi, or the situation @UselessMiwa points out where the on’yomi exists but is in practice never used in any common vocabulary). Under that ruleset, I wonder how many exceptions there would be across the ~2000 or so kanji WK teaches but I’d have to guess it would be less than 50.
Please note that I didn’t say that I don’t want to learn イン as the on’yomi reading for 飲 or that it isn’t useful. I want to learn every reading, my goal is fluency. What I said was that I would rather learn の as the “kanji reading” for 飲 within WK’s system, because it gets me quicker to the word 飲む, derivatives of which form (in my experience so far) more of the words I see using the kanji.
My broader point, I guess, is that I think for many of the kanji (手, 東, 目) for which WK teaches the kun’yomi, most of the complaints that I see actually would apply verbatim to the on’yomi. There are just two or more readings for many kanji, and you just have to build up a sense of when to use which one. This task actually doesn’t go away if WK teaches the on’yomi 100% of the time, because Japanese isn’t 100% logical.
That’s a great example of a kanji where remembering トウ is much more useful than ひがし. It’s a phonetic component in 凍 and 棟, so it allows you to throw away 2 artificial mnemonics.
Yes exactly, by just learning the word のむ one will be able to read all of its derivatives, as they will always have okurigana. There’s no additional benefit (as in ability to read additional words) to also remembering の as “reading” of 飲. Whereas イン is used in a dozen independent words with no okurigana to help read the kanji.
It’s clear we disagree, and I wanna keep things productive, but I’ll try one final time. I don’t mean to sound too flippant with what I’m about to do, so I apologize in advance if I’m being annoying: I just don’t feel like my point has been properly heard.
That’s a great example of a kanji where remembering ひがし is much more useful than トウ. The kun’yomi is entirely unique, but the on’yomi is shared in 凍 and 棟, so picking up the on’yomi via vocabulary and observations of similar kanji allows you to focus on remembering the tougher mnemonic.
Yes exactly, by just learning the word いんしゅ one will be able to read every word that shares the kanji, as they will always not have okurigana. There’s no additional benefit (as in ability to read additional words) to also remembering イン as the “reading” of 飲: it is used in a dozen independent words with the absence of okurigana there to help you remember to use the on’yomi, so the on’yomi reading will be reinforced naturally.
I also want to point out that 手 and 目 deserve a response in your reply that they did not get. Both 手紙 and 選手 for instance are gonna be there in the language regardless of what WK does, right? Any system is gonna struggle with the problem of the language as it actually exists. Tofugu has a blog post that describes in detail how they made WaniKani, right? If you’re upset with choices they made and that causes you to take greater ownership of your learning of Japanese by making a system that teaches only on’yomi for the kanji reading or whatever, that’s a win for your learning Japanese, so please go ahead.
Sorry, I don’t really understand the logic of the inverted argument.
You prefer to have 2 copies of the same card 東=ひがし=east, first as a kanji card and then second time as a vocabulary card? And you prefer to pick up 東=トウ yourself from observing a dozen cards spread as wide as levels 6-48, instead of WK just saying “this is a phonetic component in 2 more kanji”?
To each his own, let’s leave it at that.
For both of those again it would be more productive to have different readings on the kanji and vocab cards as opposed to having duplicate cards. Both 手 シュ and 目 モク are used in dozens of words.
But I wanted to focus on the argument for phonetic components, which is why I omitted them from response.
I sure hope I don’t sound upset It’s just an emotionally-neutral argument for what’s useful.
Actually remembering 飲 as の is more than ignoring Okurigana. It also messes up recall of words using 飲 without Okurigana.
飲 is always followed by either m-row (ま行) or ん, that is, conjugation of 飲む. (申す is a more common mess up for しん, rather than realizing you haven’t learned a standalone reading (On’yomi) for 申 yet.)
Only that it goes against the WK style of having to learn Kanji before vocabularies. 飲 seems debatable, but I don’t know to do with 掛かる…
If it were me, I would redesign the system to not teach any reading for Kanji 掛 at all, but use single 1 representative vocab for the Kanji for the Kanji lesson instead. Teach 掛かる immediately even before 掛 get Guru’d.
I don’t have as strong opinions for 見, for instance. (Ichidan verb, not as much problem.)