@LaVieQ @Rrwrex Thank you both for the explanations! And the good reading. It makes more sense now.
1 Like
If it’s still tied up in the morning, are poetry slams still a thing?
[Also, it appears others aren’t as fond of grading criteria #6 as I am. 
]
Tuesday, June 14, 2022
Previous senryu
- 忘れぬよう メモした紙を また捜す
わすれぬよう めもしたかみを またさがす
Wrote a note, / to not forget, yet / can’t find it
Notes:
-
The jury has decided!
to @superelf94 -
I clearly have the sensibilities of an engineer, while you lot appear to have a more poetic nature!
I love that it perfectly captures the spirit, and that it makes a lovely English senryu, but I have to point out a few “engineering” flaws: It introduces the word “wrote,” it drops the word 紙, it uses “yet” instead of “again” for また, it changes searching to finding (探す vs. 見つかる), and it introduces the negative form of a verb (“can’t”). But I’m not bitter! 
-
Using “wrote” for メモした seems a little off the mark to me. Perhaps “jotted” would have been better than any of our choices?
Current senryu challenge
Volume: Husbands
- 肩は社長お尻は妻に叩かれる
Hints:
- たたかれる【叩かれる】 ローマ字
⇒たたく. (To strike, to beat)
Remember to please use the spoiler tag with your translation attempts! Also, please include the reading in kana with your submission.
Everyone is encouraged to participate, no matter your level!
Online tools like dictionaries, sentence databases, and even AI translation engines are fair game and can be extremely helpful. Yomichan is particularly handy if you use the Chrome or Firefox browser. The 語源由来辞典 is also an excellent resource for researching the etymology of various words and expressions.
Here are the links to the 356 Japanese originals (spoiler free) and to the the spreadsheet with all the upcoming senryu as well as the translations to date.
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Real life professional translators make changes like these all the time! The translation not only has to keep the meaning, but also has to convey the same feeling into a new culture. There was that famous example where a Japanese translator changed an English “I love you” into “The moon is beautiful tonight” in Japanese, because it conveyed the feeling better, culturally. So tl;dr, I think you’re being too picky
6 Likes
It’s a fair cop. 
But … I’m still going to prefer those that follow rule 6 while still capturing the essence. Mea culpa.
That sounded a little harsh (which was unintended) but let me explain my rationale:
Professional translation of technical books, artistic books, advertising copy, whatever, is magical to me. In addition to dealing with linguistic issues, one has to deal with cultural sensibilities. Translating subtle nuances from the source language into the target language is likely impossibly difficult without taking significant liberties.
My goal with this thread aims much lower. I just think senryu are great practice for people learning to read Japanese. I believe it’s helpful to capture nuance in the notes for a translation, but keep the translation itself as faithful as possible to the original.
I realize I’m sorta changing the rules as we go along, but since this is a forum for a Japanese reading site, I’m emphasizing the artistic merit of the end result lower than the accuracy of the translation. My thinking is getting clearer as we proceed.
In this specific case I’m not knocking the translation at all. As I said, I think it captures the meaning accurately which will always be the most important metric, and it’s also quite poetic in English, which is nice. But it does make the fairly significant changes to the original that I mentioned above.
Some liberties are still inevitable. The languages work differently. But where possible, I’d still like to keep word substitutions/additions/deletions to a minimum, verb inflections the same, etc. With just 17 morae, I think it’s useful for learners like ourselves to keep the pieces the same, not just the totality.
I think in this case the change that seemed most troubling was translating また探す as “yet can’t find it”. That’s both super subtle and a pretty significant difference, but it does catch my notice, especially on a site dedicated to reading Japanese.
In short, I hope to emphasize reading Japanese, not writing English!
Hopefully this makes sense? Please tell me I haven’t sucked all the fun out of the thread!
5 Likes
かたはしゃちょう おしりはつまに たたかれる
3-4-3 version:
My boss pats
my back, while the
wife, my butt
The straightforward translation seemed a bit harsh, and so went with a more pleasant interpretation, after searching for what the expression 肩を叩く could mean. Apparently, it could mean many things. My interpretation is based on the following scenario/situation:
「上司なら励ましているだけ
肩を叩く人の本心を見抜く方法2つ目は、上司なら励ましているだけだと考えられます。上司や先輩など目上の人から肩を叩かれた場合には、相手を勇気づけていることがあります。仕事を頑張っているね、よくやっているね、お疲れ様という意味で肩に手を置くのです。好意を持っているのではなく、労いの気持ちが強いのです。」
Much more pleasant than what I had originally understood. 
Since translating 社長 as “President” or “CEO” makes it a bit much, I went with “the boss.” Of course, the reduced syllable count is as much a reason!
3 Likes
You weren’t alone with your original interpretation!
I wonder if the interpretation changes with his wife, though. Is it still a friendly pat? (Sincere question) 
- 肩は社長お尻は妻に叩かれる
Building on @LaVieQ answer, because I really like the pats my back idea:
My boss pats
my back, my wife
kicks my butt
Made it a bit less friendly because I saw 尻を叩く on jisho:
to encourage to do (something); to urge a person on; to demand action
kick butt is maybe a bit too strong, but at least keeps the 尻 part 
Edit: probably the joke is how both are about “encouragement”, but the boss is gentle and supportive (肩を叩く), while the wife is strong and chastising (尻を叩く), which is kind of the opposite of what we would expect. (well it’s totally expected in the “Husbands” volume though )
6 Likes
That’s what I was wondering. I like it. “Spanks” might work as well, but risks sounding kinky rather than disciplinary like “kicks”!
Indeed. Considering the “Husbands” category and that it is a 川柳, your version sounds more 川柳-like in spirit and tone. 
I too considered “spanked,” but abandoned as it is doesn’t go well with 社長’s action.
1 Like
Kinky boss? We may have invented senryu limericks…
Wednesday, June 15, 2022
Previous senryu
- 肩は社長お尻は妻に叩かれる
かたはしゃちょう・おしりはつまに・たたかれる
My boss pats / my back, my wife / kicks my butt
Notes:
- to @Arzar33
- @Arzar33 said it perfectly: “The joke is how both are about “encouragement”, but the boss is gentle and supportive (肩を叩く), while the wife is strong and chastising (尻を叩く), which is kind of the opposite of what we would expect.”
Current senryu challenge
Volume: Life in 1 page
- ゴメンネの代わりか皿を洗ってる
Another easy one! 洗 is level 18, but the other two kanji are level 4.
Hoping for lots of participation!
Remember to please use the spoiler tag with your translation attempts! Also, please include the reading in kana with your submission.
Everyone is encouraged to participate, no matter your level!
Online tools like dictionaries, sentence databases, and even AI translation engines are fair game and can be extremely helpful. Yomichan is particularly handy if you use the Chrome or Firefox browser. The 語源由来辞典 is also an excellent resource for researching the etymology of various words and expressions.
Here are the links to the 356 Japanese originals (spoiler free) and to the the spreadsheet with all the upcoming senryu as well as the translations to date.
1 Like
ごめんねの かわりか さらをあらってる
Instead of
“sorry” I’m washing
the dishes
This one is pretty simple! and relatable
2 Likes
I appreciate all the work you put into grading the senryu! I also wasn’t the biggest fan of my translation due to this change, as I was focusing on getting syllable counts, which made the word change. I should’ve put again, searching, but it didn’t fit the poetic style as much.
I appreciate trying to directly translate all the senryu! It’s a fun task that I like to participate in when I get the chance, and I’m honored the few I’ve done have been popular.
That said, I have had a hard time figuring out a clear rule set of how the grading goes because some things just don’t translate as nicely, and since I have been focusing on sylable counts I have taken many liberties before. Knowing now that the direct translation is more favorable I will do my best to translate more directly going forward!
Thanks for your thoughts! and again for keeping this thread entertaining and well managed!
1 Like
Re: your most recent submission:
That darned lack of a subject in Japanese! I read it as the spouse doing the dishes, not the author. I’m curious to see which way most of us interpret it.
That would be my fault as I keep tinkering with the rules! <laugh>
I do think it makes sense to emphasize the Japanese over the English, but it’s fun to tinker with the latter too. As was pointed out to me several times earlier, it can never be purely objective and rules driven: ultimately it comes down to my judgement.
I try to at least document how I’m judging things (even if sometimes retroactively).
No matter what I write, I’ll goof up and apply the rules inconsistently at times. Don’t hesitate to push back or point out errors in my thinking!
2 Likes
ごめんねの かわりかさらを あらってる
4-5-4 translation:
Washing dishes.
All because I didn’t
say, “I’m sorry?”
Translation Attempt
ごめんねのかわりかさらをあらってる
“I’m sorry” substitute? Dishwashing.
Translation notes:
- This is one of the ones I feel works better as a direct translation.
- I’m using punctuation as part of the translation here to indicate what’s meant by か and keeping the first part as a noun in the English version.
- I feel like “nounverbing” is the best English analog for nounをverbている
2 Likes
Thursday, June 16, 2022
Previous senryu
- ゴメンネの代わりか皿を洗ってる
ごめんねのかわりかさらをあらってる
“I’m sorry” substitute? Dishwashing.
Notes:
-
“I’m using punctuation as part of the translation here to indicate what’s meant by か and keeping the first part as a noun in the English version.”
-
This award is almost entirely due to @alo 's incredible ability to go back and stealth edit this senryu everyplace it was written, including the original website, and add that か in the middle that I’LL SWEAR TO MY GRAVE WAS NOT THERE WHEN I LOOKED AT THIS YESTERDAY!
-
The human brain freaks me out. This isn’t the first time this has happened here! Apparently when I read Japanese the 送り仮名 completely disappears. I know we read words at a time in English or Japanese, but it’s increasingly apparent that “extra” kana easily blends in with adjacent 送り仮名. Did anyone else experience this?!
Current senryu challenge
Volume: Global truths
- 思いやり思い上がりと紙一重
I can “read” every bit of this without a dictionary. But I still don’t know what it means! (Yet.)
Remember to please use the spoiler tag with your translation attempts! Also, please include the reading in kana with your submission.
Everyone is encouraged to participate, no matter your level!
Online tools like dictionaries, sentence databases, and even AI translation engines are fair game and can be extremely helpful. Yomichan is particularly handy if you use the Chrome or Firefox browser. The 語源由来辞典 is also an excellent resource for researching the etymology of various words and expressions.
Here are the links to the 356 Japanese originals (spoiler free) and to the the spreadsheet with all the upcoming senryu as well as the translations to date.
1 Like
Translation attempt
Ah! I think I’ve got it.
- 思いやり思い上がりと紙一重
おもいやり・おもいあがりと・かみひとえ
Thoughtfulness is
a paper-thin step
from presumption
Notes:
- I knew 思いやり meant “consideration” from my WK studies! I had to use an English thesaurus to find a synonym with fewer than 5 syllables, however.
- I had to look up the connotations for 思い上がり which means conceit or vanity, but also presumption!
- I knew 一重 meant “one layer” but discovered that 紙一重 meant “paper-thin (difference)”.
- I couldn’t think of anyway to avoid introducing “step” or some other word without also eliminating “paper-thin” or the like.
Once again, I’m quite confident in my translation. Experience has taught me I’m about to be shown my confidence was misplaced!
4 Likes
おもいやり おもいあがりと かみひとえ
3-5-3
A fine line
divides conceit from
sympathy
Not sure if this is the right meaning, 
Edit: The psychology of 思い上がり
4 Likes