Studying Japanese and Chinese together

Japanese Language
#12

That was so helpful, thank you so much!

There’s been a couple of other Japanese/Japanese Studies courses and a couple of other Chinese and Japanese courses I’ve seen and been interested in: one has entry requirements that is a bit higher, and the other I don’t get good vibes from the university, so I think the rest of my choices (you’re allowed to apply for 5 in total) would be the standalone Japanese courses. I would be happy with either the combined or single but something about this 5 year one has really stolen my heart. I had a friend who went to the same uni and studied English Linguistics and had a good time there too!

#13

I have some experience studying two languages together, though my situation is pretty different from your own. Basically, after I had been learning Japanese on my own for about a year (while doing my BA), I got a job in China, so I kind of put Japanese on the side-burner for a while and did a summer intensive in Chinese that was the equivalent of an academic year of the language in nine weeks, and immediately after that left for China. It wasn’t until I had been in China for a little while and felt more comfortable with Chinese that I started focusing on Japanese again, and I’ve kept up study of both ever since, and I think my knowledge of Chinese has really sped up my Japanese learning. For starters, I would guess in any Chinese class you take the approach to studying characters will be much different from most textbooks’ approach kanji, so you end up learning Chinese characters at a much faster rate than you would Kanji (for one, there are just more to learn), which then helps you a lot later down the road with Kanji, since many of them are the same or similar (especially if you’re learning traditional Chinese characters, though even simplified will have have a lot in common). Additionally, there’s a lot of vocab overlap (even though it sounds different, being built out of the same characters and sounding kinda similar helps a lot).

For me, balancing both of them when I’m not studying in a classroom is a little tricky sometimes, but if you’re in a program learning both, that should help you pace yourself and balance the two appropriately. As for after graduation, one my one of my majors in college was French, and it actually hasn’t been too hard to maintain that along with the other languages I’m studying because my French was advanced enough by the time I graduated that the kind of activities I do (reading novels, watching movies, talking to French people) to maintain it doesn’t really feel like the same kind of thing as grammar and vocab memorization, so I have energy for both, though I admit all the things together take up a big proportion of my not-work time. I think once you get to an advanced level, improvement gets a lot slower, but maintaining your level gets a little easier, so I imagine you could manage it.

That sounds like a really cool program, by the way.

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#14

That’s really interesting and good to know, thanks for letting me know!

Yeah I’ve been concerned about maybe being less fluent in both rather than having a better level in one of them, but isn’t that what the years abroad would be for? That being said, a friend of mine knows someone who’s studying both in America and they said they’re having a hard time balancing between the two, but I am grossly optimistic and just thought ‘hey! Trial and error with the balancing thing, right?’

I’ve read quite a few people saying this, why do you think this is?

#15

there are probably multiple reasons for this:

  1. The amount of Japanese people learning Mandarin is probably quite high, because of the low distance between those countries and China being the biggest power in that region, so there is just more material and more often means better.
  2. Even if langauges are not related you will sound many similarites, especially in the kanji related parts and those will help you. Also both languages are very different from English in the way they work regarding conjugation, declination, particles etc. but many concepts you will need in mandaring (e.g. particles) will already be covered in your japanese knowledge.
  3. Those similarities will allow a different approach to the langauge.

Some scientific date related to this: The average time needed to reach a level of B2/C1 (don’t know exactly anymore) in Japanese when already knowing a kanji using langauge will likely reduce by 1000 hours, being about one third of the total time you need. (Sorry, I can’t find the source anymore, so no reliable info :sweat_smile: )

good to hear :smiley:

#16

I’ve personally only had experience learning two languages at once in the sense that I live in America, but my family often speaks Georgian at home and I studied Spanish throughout school, but I didn’t start Spanish until I was 11 or 12 so I had already solidified a lot of Georgian knowledge.

I think jumping headfirst into studying two languages rigorously/academically is harder though. You’d have to be really dedicated and in a rush for a specific goal. I think that talented, driven individuals certainly could learn multiple languages at once, but most of the time, I think just focusing on one, nailing it down, then moving on is better. I didn’t start Japanese until my Spanish was already pretty solid, but I still sometimes mix some Japanese words when I speak or think in Spanish (probably because my consumption of Spanish to Japanese material really started to go down after getting deeper into Japanese. Later on, I’ll have to refresh a bit I think).

Plus, even though there are some advantages with the kanji, it’s a double-edged sword. Now you’ve got completely different readings already competing for recall along with the (potentially) several existing Japanese readings (counting kun and on, since on is still more of a bastardized Chinese reading). So if you first get a solid grip on one, you’ll probably be less likely to juggle them with difficulty at the beginning. That being said, perhaps you’d pick up a strong habit for one or the other that might make getting accustomed to the second one more difficult.

#17

That’s such a cool story, are you still working in China? How’s it going? And if you’re not, how did you find it?

I’ve read a lot of comments of people saying the same thing or having it the other way around which I find so interesting, is it just the vocab overlap and similar characters that makes it easier?

this is what I tell myself to help me sleep at night

YES! I thought it was the case that immersion becomes much, much easier, almost second nature, when you are fluent or near it but didn’t have any way to prove it so this has helped my assumptions, so thank you!

Your post genuinely made me feel less anxious about this choice I’m going for, so thank you so much for taking time out your day to reply to me :blush:

#18

One bit of truth is just that if you’re an English speaker, the career benefits of learning another language are rather small outside of specific reasons. And as far as being in the US goes, depending on where you are you may even run into more Cantonese speakers than Mandarin.

Chinese and Japanese are fundamentally different, but a few things. Cognates, while not as obvious as you’d think many times, there’s enough there to have some idea what’s going on. But on the other hand, you do have to worry about both False Friends and False Cognates. Not really needing to learn Kanji a second time. Most simplifications are pretty obvious and the ones that aren’t aren’t that numerous. Although there are Kanji that are used only in one language or the other, it’s still much more reduced.

On a different level, other areal features can help. Understanding the Topic-Comment structure, as well as the use of particles are two things that come to the top of my head. But many times I simply find it easier to see the explanation of a grammar point in Japanese than in English. Also in some cases, a grammar point pairs more directly with Japanese than with English.

The fact that using Japanese rather than English can be explained about the fact that I learned Japanese as an adult using that technical background while I didn’t do that in English. So the Japanese can sometimes just make more sense. On the other hand, second (non-native) language interference is a real issue in a third language.

#19

To be honest this is another reason why I considered learning both at the same time - just because they are neighbouring countries and Chinese is the most-spoken language in the world, it made a lot of sense to me.

The other reasons seem obvious but they were really interesting, thank you!

Hahaha that’s ok, I trust you! 1000 hours is a lot, but I suppose by then you would’ve learned how to study a language so you don’t spend hours doing trial and error like you do at the start. This has really motivated me and now learning both at the same time doesn’t feel like such an impossible target! Woo! Thank you!

#20

I think this is not completely true. In Germany (where I live) everybody on a Gymansium (school allowing you to go to university) needs to at least learn two langauges at school, starting in 5th and 6th grade in most cases. Sadly I chose Latin back then, so I only speak English and German, but a friend of mine for example speaks fluent English (almost native level) and fluent French in addition to Germand and now learned Spanish and is already quite fluent. (She even also learned Latin at school) Even if those langauges are very related it is definetly possible to learn 2 langauges at once and I have many friends who are fluent in two foreign langauges.

#21

That’s really interesting, I’ve never heard anyone say that before. As I live in the UK, I tend to come across Japanese/Chinese/Korean speakers more than European languages which I think was also another spark for me starting to learn Japanese. It’s highly possible that I only come across JP/CH/KO more than others because I live in a city which has two universities and so a large percent of students migrate from Asia to study here. As I’ve worked in so many customer services positions, they were my (lovely) customers a lot of the time.

You’ve brought up so many points I hadn’t ever considered and it’s been really helpful, so thank you so much!

#22

What do you mean “not completely true”? Do you mean it is harder, but only a little? Also, I pointed out that I don’t think it’s impossible or not worth doing, I just said that it takes more dedication and probably a decent reason (other than just “for fun”). You are giving just anecdotal evidence, too, and from a specific country (I’d venture that the need and/or benefit to learn multiple languages is more pressing in countries without English as an official language, too) [edit: It’s kind of unfortunate, too. People in non-English speaking countries are probably quite pressed to learn English and that might get in the way of someone who wants to learn something else, but needs or is pushed into the usefulness of English. Some people don’t have the time or willpower to learn a second language on top of that. So English speakers are pretty lucky in that regard. They don’t have to learn English as a foreign language, and the board is wide open]. Additionally, you have to consider whether those people started those two languages from scratch at the same time, or whether, for example, they took French 1, then started German 1 while taking French 2.

The case of OP is coming from English and starting two vastly different (from English) languages at once (I’m assuming OP level around N5 or lower).

Too lazy to look it up, but I wonder what the stats would be for time it takes to get fluent in two languages doing them one after another or together (so many variables though). For example, I wonder if you learn Japanese fluently in 3 years, then it only takes an additional year to learn Chinese fluently, whereas tackling both at once might take 5.

#23

Oh absolutely. Equally, I feel like having a dedicated structure to learning the language and other students to practice with cancels out the self-study (if that makes sense!). I’ve found learning Japanese to be a very isolating experience, but I feel that having other people to practice with/share frustrations with/teach and encourage with is something I wouldn’t ever find outside of university so I think a part of me wants to take both languages at the same time so I can take that opportunity by the horns and use it to my full advantage

I’m a bit worried about this but it’s nothing that brain training and flashcards can’t fix, right? :sweat_smile:

#24

Most places in the world, if someone knows a language beyond their native language(s), it’s gonna be English. Maybe Spanish after that. So that means for jobs where a language is involved, finding a Chinese speaker who also speaks English, either natively or fluently, is pretty easer. Or using China, a Chinese / Japanese natively bilingual speaker isn’t that hard to find.

So for things where these are important, if English is your first language, you have a rather large hill to climb.

This is somewhat an expansion on the original point because no matter what language you need, it’s more likely to find a high level English speaker who also speaks that language. Than bother to look for the opposite in many situations.

#25

I probably misinterpreted your statement a little bit there. The point I was trying to show was that it isn’t as significant as one might think. Learning two langauges at once surely is more difficult than one, but especially when it is the only thing you are doing it doesn’t matter so much, if the second half of your studies is a second langauge, or lets say mathematics, if you are capable of timemanagement both would have about the same effect, at least that is what my experience says.
Sure I don’t have any scientific evidence for this, so I can only speak from my experience and the fact that I am from a non english speaking country might have influence too, so I can’t argue with your points and just give my experience.

#26

There are indeed many factors that would contribute to the success of such a venture. IMO, it mostly boils down to the individual. Do it if you really want, but understand what you’re getting into. That’s the same with just about everything, though, I guess.

#27

that’s a good endpoint to our discussion I guess :smiley:

#28

@ughitssophie I would be very interested in getting to know about your decision and your eventual experience would you mind keeping me updated? :smiley:
You could mail me to dadung@todalu.com, so we could get in contact. (This is my spam address, which is the reason I can post it here, so please answer, if you should write :smiley: )

#29

Do it.

I started with Mandarin, four years later I began to learn German, and after 1.5 years then started to learn French concurrently for a year – for a year I was learning all three at the same time. I think if you space it out a bit (not start both at the same time), it’s definitely doable :slight_smile:

I kinda dropped French after a year because it wasn’t really to my liking, but if you have your heart set on the languages you’re learning it’ll get you far. I do it the other way around than what you’re planning to do, but I find having learned Mandarin, learning kanji isn’t that hard.

^Ditto the person above, if you’re interested to talk a bit more, you can contact me at veronica.vanessa.nus@gmail.com (also my spam address)

Get language learning, it makes your life colourful :smiley:

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#30

@Dadung @hellistic I’ve emailed you both :blush:

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#31

I have studied both Chinese and Japanese at the same time. I started to study Japanese after I’d already taken a few semesters of Chinese (the opposite of your situation). Here’s my experience in a nutshell:

For starters, I was really a lot more interested in Chinese than in Japanese, and since my level in Chinese was so much more advanced, my Japanese suffered a lot. Honestly, the only reason I passed the Japanese class was because I already knew all the kanji and so I could fake my way through the tests. Chinese grammar, pronunciation, and even some characters are not the same as in Japanese and so I would basically read some Japanese text with a Chinese pronunciation and guess at the meaning because I hadn’t studied the grammar.

I’m not saying that you couldn’t pull off this program. In fact, I don’t think that taking Japanese and Chinese at the same time is all that intimidating or difficult. It just requires some extra work, and I’m a relatively lazy person who is used to doing the bare minimum and still getting what I want (which is more or less what happened when I took the classes simultaneously). Also, I did the dual-language thing when I was much younger and a lot less motivated/organized. But be forewarned that you’ll likely fall into the trap of seeing Chinese through a Japanese lens (since you have some Japanese under your belt), and will definitely have more of an affinity for one language than the other, which means that the later will necessarily suffer. Try to avoid these pitfalls and you’ll be fine :smiley: