Interesting, hadn’t looked at it that way but it makes sense. Thanks!
Thank you and @denzo for both of your explanations. It makes things slightly less confusing to me, as I really was scratching my head to figure out if there was a difference or not.
I don’t see this nuance in the Handbook. The first thing you said that ていい is more direct and てもいい is more indirect is somehow matched by the assertion that ていい is used in spoken language.
Yeah, I’m not sure if I were to read too much into it. The thing is, the 〜ていい form has really weird translations in English which overemphasize the nuance. To me it sounds very soft in Japanese. Definitely less “intentionally permissive” than 〜てもいい.
On a regular “permission” sentence I do think that is true. The problem here is that 言ってもいい is a special case and can be used outside of the “permission” context.
「言っていい／言ってよい」can mean “it could be said” and is a pretty common word for when drawing a conclusion.
In that context (which I believe is closer to what @yamitenshi and @denzo had in mind, since they were using sentences such as 帰って(も)うれしい, which is no permission at all), yes you could say that 「言っていい」draws a limited conclusion (“from what was said above, it could be said that xxx [and that’s it]”) while 「言ってもいい」draws a way more open one (“so it could be also be said that xxx [but by saying that I’m not rejecting the previously stablished understanding]”)
I’m not going to delve into it, but in short, I’d say that 〜ても is more hypothetical than 〜て. It’s almost like adding も suggests that you’re providing an example. As for why, I guess it’s because も has that inclusive nuance? Would ~ also be OK? It suggests that what comes before も extends beyond whatever else has been mentioned, maybe even that it’s somehow more extreme. 〜て alone suggests a more direct link, in my opinion.
With all due respect, I’m not sure I agree.「〜言っていい」simply states that ~ could be said or accepted. It doesn’t reject anything else, nor does it affirm anything else. It is self-contained and direct. It’s definitely more limited in scope, but it’s not necessarily closed, just like how Aは provides information on A only, but doesn’t exclude the possibility that B or other as-yet-unmentioned parties are the same.
On another note, I’d like to add something about「〜言ってもいい」: it is open, yes, but I’d say it allows the openness to manifest more than it suggests it. Yes, it’s an example of what could be said, but も suggests there might be something else that’s already there. Like you said, all that isn’t rejected, but it makes up a set that somehow extends to ~, meaning that the existence of ~ is an example of the openness of the set of things that can be said (i.e. the set is thus extended by one element), but it doesn’t tell us how open the set is (i.e. there might not be any other elements to add). That aside, as I mentioned above, も can also suggest that a higher degree of something would be attained through ~ (i.e. what precedes も), so that nuance of ‘going further’ might be worth considering as well. It’s not necessarily more open than「〜言っていい」, however: 「〜言っていい」provides no information about what else can be said;「〜言ってもいい」 implies that something else might have been said, and perhaps even that an additional leap has been made by saying ~, but it doesn’t say anything else about further possibilities. For that matter, strictly speaking, it doesn’t even say anything about how big the set of ‘other acceptable things’ is: it could be an empty set. After all, も can have a concessive meaning, even if permission is not explicitly in play: after seeing A perform a great feat, for example,「'A is talented’と言ってもいい」can suggest grudging admiration on the part of an otherwise hostile observer, whereas that observer’s set of acceptable things might previously have been ‘nasty things only’ or ‘nothing worth saying’.
In summary, I think we agree on how these two structures compare in general, but perhaps not on the details. I would say that「〜言っていい」provides more limited information, simply stating that something is an acceptable statement or conclusion, whereas「〜言ってもいい」provides information with a broader scope, because it suggests an addition, concession, or even a far-reaching extension in relation to something else, even if that something can theoretically be nothing. Neither, however, is more or less open to unrelated elements or understandings.
What does ってる mean in 映るってる?
I would say the る before is a typo and it should be 映ってる. But I found some uses of ってる after nouns:
Couldn’t find it as a grammar point anywhere, though.
Oh wait, above is something else since it’s just the 〜て form of かみる.
What is the source of the text?
It was a tweet. I copied everything though, so I can’t provide any more context
That looks interesting! Thanks for helping me do a search anyways
I feel bad for the English learners trying to pick up grammar and spelling from twitter.
mate i think youre looking at 挟まれる
Yes! I just notice now and deleted before I saw your reply. Sorry for the trouble and thanks!
Thought you guys might appreciate this grammar point:
I came across it a few times in my book while reading and since its the first new grammar I’ve seen in awhile and was at work so…I decided to ask my coworker rather than just googling it.
They didn’t know what the hell it was and got all the more curious, and then her neighbor joined in, and the other people in the staffroom did too. None of them knew it. SO THEY GO OFF AND TRY TO GET THE PRINCIPAL. I’m just like please no lol. Then they were like wow this must be from some old book and I was just like “no it’s a modern one” which got them all the more curious about what it was. One even guessed Harry Potter lol
The answer shows up first if you just copy paste it into Google. Will probably do that from now on.
And I totally agree with you. I rewrote that sentence like three or four times because I was not satisfied with it, but ended giving up because I had to go to work D=
Thank you for your explanation, I think it is a lot better than mine =)
I did say I was exaggerating…my point is that 〜ていい is a stronger statement than 〜てもいい and I think the extreme example makes that a lot clearer than trying to get the nuances perfect in a translation.
Am I interpreting this correctly that he has three older sisters who’ve moved out (and Mutsumi is one of them)? I get that the rest of the sentence is saying that even though Mutsumi moved out after graduating high school, she lives in a neighboring prefecture and will visit (come home) sometimes on weekends. It’s the 三つ that I’m hung up on. I thought that a counter needed to be followed by の when it precedes what it’s modifying
(Granted, I am also not at the level to actually be reading this story or the LNs it’s a side story to, but since this series is my hyperfixation and there’s no ENG translation, I ain’t letting that stop me. I’m just not particularly concerned with how much I understand yet, except in this case since it’s heretofore unknown info about a character.)
Pretty sure thats just saying mutsumi was 3 years older than him
Ah, okay, thanks! That was something else I was also considering, but I wasn’t sure
Unless if the counter is attached to a verb.
三つ離れた = separated in “thirdly” way
(I wouldn’t have think about “three years apart”, but now indeed it makes perfect sense : 三つ離れた姉 : older sister that is 3 “things” apart).
EDITE: stupid me! I was to ask how is it know that she is 3 years older and not 3 years younger… but of course it’s 三つ離れた姉 and not 三つ離れた妹 !
(I have yet to interiorize more the fact that “just sister” and “just brother” are non-existent concepts in Japanese; you are either 姉 or 妹 not just “sister”; you are 兄 or 弟 not just “brother”)