Short Grammar Questions

Japanese Language Grammar
#7032

I figured I’d just try to handle one example of a ずる・じる verb here since I didn’t tackle those in the post I mentioned.

In traditional Japanese grammar, these verbs are classified separately as サ変 (サ行変格活用=‘the sa row irregular conjugation’), which is the same group する belongs to. Here are the forms for 信じる according to Wikipedia:

信ずる（口語）

語幹：信（しん）

  • 未然形 (irrealis, used for negation, among other things)： -じ （-ない、-よう、-ず、-させる、-られる）、 -ぜ（-ず、-られる、-させる）
  • 連用形 (the verb-joining form you see in compound verbs)： -じ
  • 終止形 (the sentence-final form at the end of sentences)： -ずる、-じる
  • 連体形 (the noun-joining form that you see in relative clauses e.g. 私が信じる友達)： -ずる、-じる
  • 仮定形 (the hypothetical form that you see with ば)： -ずれ、-じれ
  • 命令形 (the imperative form for giving orders)： -じろ、-じよ、-ぜよ

The versions that aren’t so common today (mainly the ぜ and ず forms) are probably more traditional. I don’t know enough to be certain of what the set of ‘traditional conjugations’ was. I presume it’s probably the same as what we have for する now (i.e. you do exactly the same thing but replace all the S sounds with Z sounds).

In any case, it’s perfectly fine to stick to 〜じる only for these verbs nowadays, or so I believe.

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#7033

I think this is just a matter of emphasis. By putting 会いに first the emphasis of the sentence is that they were going in order to see Mary. If it was worded the way you flipped it with アメリカへ会いに行きました then the emphasis of the sentence is that they went to America. At least that’s how I’d read it.

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#7034

～てほしい is often used as “I want something to be done for me”. But if I wanted to say “I want to be loved” using this concept, which form of 愛する should I use? Active 愛してほしい or passive 愛されてほしい?

#7035

愛してほしい would be “I want you to love me.”

愛されてほしい would be “I want you to be loved.”

愛されたい would be “I want to be loved.”

6 Likes
#7036

Thanks :slight_smile: So it was たい after all for passive “general” one…
But yeah, come to think of it it makes perfect sense - I forgot that ～てほしい is usually directed at someone (?) - which shows in your translations for 愛してほしい and 愛されてほしい.

#7037

Is ついでに limited in its usage to other people only? Can you use it for yourself?

#7038

How does one specify who is missed when using 寂(さび)しがる (if you know a better word for “to miss someone,” please let me know)?

I found these example sentences

君(きみ)が()いなくなる()と()友()達(だち)が()寂(さび)しがり()だろう()。()

彼(かれ)氏(し)に()振(ふ)られて()以()来()、()まじ()寂(さび)しがっている()。()かわいそう()ね()。()

私たちは彼がいなくて 寂しがる でしょう。

Do I mark it with [person missed]がいなく[て・と]?

What exactly does it literally? “That [person] who is not here, I/we are lonely (without).”
Knowing it literally helps me to better understand the form.

Thank you in advance.

#7039

寂しがる literally means “to feel 寂しい (lonely)” and it doesn’t take an object, so you can’t directly point to someone with it. The translation of “miss someone” makes it seem like you could do that, I suppose, but unlike “missing someone”, “feeling lonely” doesn’t require any specific person to be in mind.

As you found, you can specify a person, by just saying that they are not there and causally tying that to feeling 寂しい.

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#7040

To add a little more, ～がる is a suffix meaning “to show signs of ~”. You’re generally not supposed to describe other people’s feelings directly, so you use がる to make it less direct. I think the second example you posted is the best demonstration of this. The person who was dumped seems to be lonely, but the speaker can’t know definitively, hence 寂しがる instead of 寂しい.

(There’s probably more to it that I can’t properly explain, but hopefully that helps.)

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#7041

Yeah, this is the only verb I could find for “to miss someone” on jisho.org, renshuu, and weblio. They said it was intransitive. So no options more like the English version I suppose?

I didn’t know that, thank you for sharing! I’ll keep an eye out for it in future verbs.

This is always good to review. In this case though, I’m working on saying “I miss [Aさん].” Retroactively, I realize I probably should have mentioned that in my question. Luckily though, not directly describing someone else’s feelings isn’t something we have to worry about for this example unless it’s an invalid way for me to describe my own feelings.

#7042

It’s related, but probably a bit stronger / more poetic than we often mean by “miss someone,” but there’s also 恋しい (yearned for, longed for, missed) and 恋しがる (to yearn for, to long for, to miss). Since this one has a specific person or thing in mind, you can apply an object.

君を恋しがる
こたつを恋しがる
過去を恋しがる

Anyway, it’s an option for some things. Probably not casual aquaintances or whatnot, for whom it might be okay to say you “miss” but not “yearn for”, but yeah.

Also, it’s about as direct and frank as possible, and Japanese people tend to shy away from that in most circumstances. You’ll see it in song lyrics or other situations like that though.

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#7043

Thank you! I quite like that. Is it the kind of yearning that you can have for family or more like a lovers thing?

I’m missing some certain friends of mine, so I’ll take your advice and not use it for them at least.

#7044

I’ve seen it used for family / home.

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#7045

Thank you!

#7046

Oh… and as @seanblue mentioned, this is all for other people, since it’s ～がる.

For yourself, you need to use something like ～く思う or ～くなる or other phrasings.

I noticed, you saying you wanted to use it for your own feelings…

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#7047

You might want something like Aさんがいなくて寂しい. “A-san’s not here, so I’m lonely”. Rather than missing someone, you’re lonely because they’re not there. Not saying this is the best way of course, but I think it would get your intent across.

Is there a reason to use something like that instead of just describing yourself as 寂しい? Too direct?

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#7048

And we’ve come full circle!

It seemed important to @CDR-Strawberry to have a verb expression, but yes, that’s why I mentioned “other phrasings” as well.

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#7049

I see, thank you.

Would that work for saying it to a mutual friend or does it imply that I don’t appreciate the other friend?

#7050

Not necessarily a verb. I more meant I was hoping for something with more similar arguments to the English “I miss someone.”

#7051

Question: when to use short form

I still don’t know and I’ve lived here for almost two years. Of course if the other person uses ます／です I will too. But is it okay to use it with people who are older than me (usually by 5-10 years) who use short form to me? Like at my gym or club or church? I have no idea…