Short Grammar Questions

[denzo]

the で here says when something is happening, and the “let’s think about” bit is left implied (it’s an incomplete sentence).

from imabi:

2. で shows an extent which may create juncture. Juncture deals with a point in time or place. However, it is not definite in nature as the particle に. This does not mean phrases like 一秒で are impossible. The purpose of に is to show exact time. Think of the difference as “The ice fully melted in 3 hours, 4 minutes, and 32 seconds” vs “The ice fully melted in three hours”. Juncture could also be used to show at what point something happens. The vagueness of this comment is on purpose. For instance, you’d use で to show at what temperature something boils or melts.

but regardless, it’s a set expression anyway:

1. we’ll cross that bridge when we get there; we’ll think about it when the time comes

[omk3]

Thanks both of you. I had thought of an incomplete sentence, and of it being a set expression, but searching for the whole thing (with で included) produced no results so I gave up. Oh well…

[denzo]

jisho’s sentence parsing is terrible. takoboto and yomichan find it immediately…

[Jonapedia]

@omk3

Thanks both of you. I had thought of an incomplete sentence, and of it being a set expression, but searching for the whole thing (with で included) produced no results so I gave up. Oh well…

I guess this isn’t exactly the same thing as in その時はその時で, but I just thought I’d offer a simple phrase that I think I’ve heard a few times in anime that might make the essence of the 〜は〜で easier to remember:「君は君でいいよ」(and similar sentences) are used to mean ‘you’re fine the way you are’ and offer reassurance. (OK, actually, I still think these two phrases work more or less the same way, but that’s probably just got to do with how I personally see で.)

[omk3]

Thanks, that’s helpful. I also suspect that there’s a similar principle behind both phrases, but I’m curious now: How do you personally see で?

[Jonapedia]

@omk3

How do you personally see で?

Hm… as the て-form of だ above all, with most functions being derived from that? Or as a mix between that and a ‘means’ particle. In the case of 君は君でいいよ, I’d say either meaning works. You are good just being you, or you are good even if the basis of your lifestyle and existence is you. For その時はその時で, I guess the て-form interpretation is good if you want to focus on ‘that time being that time’ and not being presently relevant, or being different from some other time. Can we use the ‘means’ particle interpretation? Well, maybe this is technically an incorrect or imprecise interpretation, but it seems like it’s also explained by some sites as meaning ‘when that time comes’, and it certainly seems to be used that way by some people, so you could say it’s kinda like how some people explain the existence of 後で: one uses ‘that [point in] time’ to consider the issue. I think the て-form interpretation is more appropriate in this case, but I think both work.

That’s basically it. Fun fact: apparently で is actually descended from に+て in Classical Japanese, but because I haven’t had enough time to study the details of Classical Japanese grammar, I’m not sure how to interpret that, especially because に might be the particle or one of the forms of the old copula なり (basically the classical version of だ・である). I guess we can just treat that as a bit of trivia for now. Hahaha.

[omk3]

@Jonapedia

Fun fact: apparently で is actually descended from に+て in Classical Japanese

That’s interesting. I always secretly thought that the particle で might have been the て-form of だ originally, because in several cases (like the one we’re discussing) it seems to me that either of them would work. Not so, apparently

[Jonapedia]

@omk3

Not so, apparently

Oh, it might be, actually, at least indirectly, because に as a verb form is essentially the equivalent of… であり? It’s the masu-stem of なり. (‘Masu-stem’ isn’t the right technical term, especially since I don’t think にます actually existed at any point, but Japanese uses the same word – 連用形 – for the thing that acts as the masu-stem.) If you know that the て-form is historically just the masu-stem + て followed by sound changes, well… that means that にて is essentially the て-form of the equivalent of だ・である。

[Bently]

Question about these sentences I made. Are either of them correct? And if so, which one sounds more natural?
私は鳥如しに寝ました。
鳥みたいに寝ました。

[yamitenshi]

I think in the first sentence you’d use 如く rather than 如しに. 如し is an auxiliary verb, not a noun, and is essentially analogous to (の)ようだ, with 如き and 如くbeing conjugations of it analogous to (の)ような and (の)ように/で respectively, hence 如く being the appropriate form to use.

I feel like みたい is more natural, but also a lot more casual. I also recall there being some nuance of the similarity expressed by みたい being visual, or at least bearing some visual/visible characteristics, but I’m not quite sure whether that’s the case, and it doesn’t always seem to fit. Depending on what you’re trying to express though, there might be a better fit (I’m not sure what you mean by sleeping like a bird).

From what I gather 如し/如き/如く isn’t really used anymore, it’s a bit archaic and has almost entirely been replaced by some variation of よう depending on which you use. So instead, 鳥のように寝ました might be more natural/less archaic, and still somewhat formal.

[seanblue]

Also, besides the fact that 如し should be 如く when used as an adverb, from what I can tell it should be 鳥の如く, just like you’d say 鳥のように.

@yamitenshi

如し is an auxiliary verb, not a noun, and is essentially analogous to (の)ようだ, with 如き and 如くbeing conjugations of it analogous to (の)ような and (の)ように/で respectively, hence 如く being the appropriate form to use.

I’ve always found the “auxiliary verb” term funny since it’s not really used as a verb. But that’s how 助動詞 is often translated anyway.

But yeah, 如し and its various forms is easy to keep track of when you know classical 形容詞 conjugations since they are identical.

https://www.kotenbunpou.com/用言/形容詞-1-ク活用とシク活用/

https://www.kotenbunpou.com/助動詞/ごとし/

[TokeruKonkoyo]

@yamitenshi

I feel like みたい is more natural, but also a lot more casual. I also recall there being some nuance of the similarity expressed by みたい being visual, or at least bearing some visual/visible characteristics, but I’m not quite sure whether that’s the case, and it doesn’t always seem to fit. Depending on what you’re trying to express though, there might be a better fit (I’m not sure what you mean by sleeping like a bird).

Even more casual would’ve been 鳥っぽい, but I agree 鳥のように寝ました。 sounds the most common and natural.

[yamitenshi]

っぽい might actually be so casual it feels out of place in a sentence ending in 〜ました Not sure about that though.

EDIT: Actually, searching for っぽいです does give results, so maybe it can be used in polite sentences just fine.

But doesn’t that also carry a different connotation than みたい or のように? I can’t quite explain it, but it has a different “feel” to me, maybe closer to らしい than to みたい in describing some kind of “inherent” characteristic, so something like 女性っぽい feels to me more like “feminine” than “resembling a girl” whereas 女性みたい is more “resembling a girl” than “feminine” (you know, aside from the considerable overlap between those). Does that track with your interpretation of it?

@seanblue

I’ve always found the “auxiliary verb” term funny since it’s not really used as a verb. But that’s how 助動詞 is often translated anyway.

Ah, it was my understanding that 如し does in fact take the place of a predicate or verb, but I’ll admit I basically learned about it on the spot so there’s a good chance I misunderstood something here or there

[TokeruKonkoyo]

@yamitenshi

But doesn’t that also carry a different connotation than みたい or のように? I can’t quite explain it, but it has a different “feel” to me, maybe closer to らしい than to みたい in describing some kind of “inherent” characteristic, so something like 女性っぽい feels to me more like “feminine” than “resembling a girl” whereas 女性みたい is more “resembling a girl” than “feminine” (you know, aside from the considerable overlap between those). Does that track with your interpretation of it?

Yes, definitely. I wouldn’t say they mean the same thing, but ultimately it depends on what wants to say. The っぽい was just a low ball from me, sorry

Regarding みたい I’ve seen it more at the end of a sentence clause in a similar way らしい is used in that position and sometimes らしい after nouns (as you said, emphasizing “Y having the features of X” in a XらしいY sentence), but みたい not as often. I’ve seen のような or のように way more often in general.

For “feminine” I think I would rather use 女性的.

[seanblue]

I think technically a 助動詞 is anything that goes at the end of a word (sometimes after that prior word has been conjugated) and can itself be conjugated. For example, たい as in 行きたい is also a 助動詞 even though たい is clearly not a verb in the traditional sense.

[Jonapedia]

@yamitenshi

@seanblue

I’ve always found the “auxiliary verb” term funny since it’s not really used as a verb. But that’s how 助動詞 is often translated anyway.

Ah, it was my understanding that 如し does in fact take the place of a predicate or verb, but I’ll admit I basically learned about it on the spot so there’s a good chance I misunderstood something here or there

I mean, relative to how we learn grammar and how things are designated in Japanese, 如き behaves like one of the Classical Japanese ancestors of い-adjectives today, and those are just 形容詞, which we usually translate as ‘adjectives’. But 如き usually can’t function alone, so it’s an auxiliary word, and its classification in Japanese is indeed 助動詞. Even ない is technically a 助動詞.

@seanblue

Also, besides the fact that 如し should be 如く when used as an adverb, from what I can tell it should be 鳥の如く

It seems like it works with or without the の. I think I’ve seen the version with の more often though.

@yamitenshi

something like 女性っぽい feels to me more like “feminine” than “resembling a girl” whereas 女性みたい is more “resembling a girl” than “feminine”

Based on dictionary definitions, っぽい (which should be transformed into っぽく in this case so it can act as an adverb) is more about showing a certain tendency or very much giving a certain feeling. みたい, at least in this usage, is more about resembling something in general appearance or shape.

[TokeruKonkoyo]

@Jonapedia

Based on dictionary definitions, っぽい (which should be transformed into っぽく in this case so it can act as an adverb) is more about showing a certain tendency or very much giving a certain feeling. みたい, at least in this usage, is more about resembling something in general appearance or shape.

The serendipity of Duolingo:
学生っぽく見えるけど、彼は会社の社長なんです。

[Milgram]

For the Aしか~ない grammar point, can A be an adverb?

For example, would it be wrong if I said something like 漢字は醜くしか書けない?

[Jonapedia]

@Milgram

For the Aしか~ない grammar point, can A be an adverb?

Yes. From 大辞林:

しか
（係助）
体言またはそれに準ずるもの，動詞の連体形，形容詞・形容動詞の連用形，格助詞などに付き，下に常に打ち消しの語を伴って用いる。
Used attached to a noun, something equivalent to a noun, the noun-modifying form of a verb, the adverbial form of an adjective, a case particle or something similar, always followed by a negation

(I didn’t bother copying the definition/meaning explanation because I think most people would have come across it shortly after starting to study Japanese grammar. Also, I swapped an active form for a passive form, and translated technical terms with their most intuitive equivalents, not conventional technical equivalents in English, so sorry if anyone feels I’ve been imprecise.)

You can basically attach it to any of the usual parts of speech in Japanese, as long as you use the right form.

[Milgram]

Great, thanks!