Short Grammar Questions

Yeah, I was referring to the fact that に can be used to direct an action or motion verb at an object (though I wouldn’t call オームの法則 a physical object).

The answer you gave, however, made a lot of sense. I knew from the translated sentence–Today we will carry out an experiment about Ohm’s Law–that the 実験 was related to オームの法則 in some way. However, I didn’t know that there was a grammar point with に関する. Thank you for your response and sorry for confusing you with my description.

If you really want to break it down, you can just take note of the fact that に is often used to draw attention to a particular point, thing or person. There is a link ‘to’ something, so you use に, because the link is directed towards something (Ohm’s Law). Something like を would be a little strange here because it tends to designate the person or thing undergoing an action or the zone of action for certain movement verbs (e.g. 空を飛ぶ=to fly through/in the sky). Like you said, に tends to have more of a directional feel. You’ll get a better idea of how these particles work as you’re exposed to more Japanese. It is completely true, however, that に関する is a set structure, and you can choose to remember it that way instead.

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i wanna makes sure of something.

i keep stumbling over ichidan, godan, る-verbs and う-verbs … but i learn my grammar with the japanese from zero books so i don’t actually know what those mean.

here’s the JFZ system:

  1. regular verb
    = every verb that does not end in る or with an iru/eru sound (*)
    e.g. 曲がる, 飲む
    → convert hiragna う-form and conjugate

  2. いる⋆える verb
    = rhymes with iru / eru
    e.g. 変える
    → drop る and conjugate

  3. いる⋆える exception verb
    = rhymes with iru / eru but is actually just a regular verb (*)
    e.g. 帰る (there’s just about two dozen or so)

  4. irregular verb
    = unique cases
    くる, する


is the following correspondence correct?

  1. godan, う-verb
  2. ichidan, る-verb
  3. godan, る-verb
  4. irregular
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is there a script for self study that show sentences for my current and previous levels?

I noticed the ichidan/godan verb split is used very often (makes sense, since it’s the linguistic split), but that creates issues with verbs in the godan group. I think it makes sense to split them like this

  1. 〜る godan verbs like 帰る, 切る, etc. They have the aru/iru/eru sound, but for iru/eru sounds that also depends on whether the sound is in the leading kanji (like 帰る) and there are exceptions like 着る.
  2. 〜く godan verbs like 書く, 聞く, 開く, etc. (that also includes 泳ぐ)
  3. 〜う godan verbs like 買う, 洗う, 習う, etc.
  4. 〜ぶ/ぬ/む godan verbs like 死ぬ, 学ぶ, 転ぶ, etc.
  5. 〜つ godan verbs like 立つ, 育つ, 打つ, etc.
  6. 〜える/〜いる ichidan verbs like 代える, 変える, 教える, 開ける, etc. Here the leading え/い sound is outside of the leading kanji
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I think that’s correct. I can’t think of any exceptions for now. I guess JFZ managed to find a neat way to avoid grammatical terminology. Interesting.

EDIT: What @AndyMender said is useful for the practical side of applying godan and ichidan conjugation knowledge. I remember doing a breakdown with examples in a fairly recent post (within the past 3 months?). You might want to give it a look.

Found it: Grammar Doubt 3! - #12 by Jonapedia

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No exactly, the mapping to other system is:
jfk , mina no nihongo , japanese grammar , genki
regular verb, group 1, godan, う-verb
いる⋆える verb, group 2, ichidan, る-verb
いる⋆える exception verb, group 1, godan, う-verb
irregular verb, group 3

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I absolutely second this! I think @Jonapedia 's breakdown is very very insightful and it should probably be stickied somewhere :slight_smile:

ah. i’m beginning to understand what george-sensei (author of JFZ) really did and really appreciate it.

2-5: is there any difference in how i would conjugate the verbs from 2-5? if not, why not group them together? → everything not ending in る
6: exceptions are probably rare but: 混じる

yeah, the author is not the scholarly type and his decision for the new naming convention is based on feedback he got from his students, who according to him always had trouble with the terminology - so he rearranged how exceptions are handled and found more sensible names.

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I think Andy is grouping them this way because, for example, く verbs all conjugate to いた いて, and ぬむぶ verbs all go to んだ んで, etc.

I don’t personally think I would break verbs down that much for classification purposes, not least for etymological reasons (those are just きた and にた、みた、びた with sound changes over time), but it does help to break them down at some point when learning some of their conjugations.

Btw, 混じる etc are their own thing. There’s a practice in Japanese of taking a kanji by itself with its onyomi and putting じる (which is related to する, it used to be ずる) onto it. It isn’t dissimilar to things like 勉強する

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Yes, hence the split into several groups:
2. 〜く (dictionary form), 〜いて (て form), 〜き (verb core), 〜か (plain negative form), 〜け (potential form)
3. 〜う (dictionary form), 〜って (て form), 〜い (verb core), 〜わ (plain negative form), 〜え (potential form)
4. 〜ぶ/ぬ/む (dictionary form), 〜んで (て form), 〜び/に/み (verb core), 〜ば/な/ま (plain negative form), 〜べ/ね/め (potential form)
5. 〜つ (dictionary form), 〜って (て form), 〜ち (verb core), 〜た (plain negative form), 〜て (potential form)

There are some slight differences among the groups in different conjugation forms, hence I think it’s useful to keep them separate, at least for writing purposes :slight_smile: .

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I explain the differences and also talk about the etymology and how I use it to make all the different forms feel ‘natural’. Just open the post I mentioned earlier and look under ‘godan verbs’. It’s all there. The main difficulties lie in learning the 〜て・た forms.

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ah, yes, of course - could’ve thought of that myself :sweat_smile:

fair enough. せびる then! :laughing:
clutching at straws now …

thanks but i’ll pass on further reading, since i have no actual problems with grammatical understanding to address and you all already helped me resolve my slight issue with the corresponding terminology :pray:t2:

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I figured I’d just try to handle one example of a ずる・じる verb here since I didn’t tackle those in the post I mentioned.

In traditional Japanese grammar, these verbs are classified separately as サ変 (サ行変格活用=‘the sa row irregular conjugation’), which is the same group する belongs to. Here are the forms for 信じる according to Wikipedia:

信ずる(口語)

語幹:信(しん)

  • 未然形 (irrealis, used for negation, among other things): -じ (-ない、-よう、-ず、-させる、-られる)、 -ぜ(-ず、-られる、-させる)
  • 連用形 (the verb-joining form you see in compound verbs): -じ
  • 終止形 (the sentence-final form at the end of sentences): -ずる、-じる
  • 連体形 (the noun-joining form that you see in relative clauses e.g. 私が信じる友達): -ずる、-じる
  • 仮定形 (the hypothetical form that you see with ば): -ずれ、-じれ
  • 命令形 (the imperative form for giving orders): -じろ、-じよ、-ぜよ

The versions that aren’t so common today (mainly the ぜ and ず forms) are probably more traditional. I don’t know enough to be certain of what the set of ‘traditional conjugations’ was. I presume it’s probably the same as what we have for する now (i.e. you do exactly the same thing but replace all the S sounds with Z sounds).

In any case, it’s perfectly fine to stick to 〜じる only for these verbs nowadays, or so I believe.

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I think this is just a matter of emphasis. By putting 会いに first the emphasis of the sentence is that they were going in order to see Mary. If it was worded the way you flipped it with アメリカへ会いに行きました then the emphasis of the sentence is that they went to America. At least that’s how I’d read it.

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~てほしい is often used as “I want something to be done for me”. But if I wanted to say “I want to be loved” using this concept, which form of 愛する should I use? Active 愛してほしい or passive 愛されてほしい?

愛してほしい would be “I want you to love me.”

愛されてほしい would be “I want you to be loved.”

愛されたい would be “I want to be loved.”

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Thanks :slight_smile: So it was たい after all for passive “general” one…
But yeah, come to think of it it makes perfect sense - I forgot that ~てほしい is usually directed at someone (?) - which shows in your translations for 愛してほしい and 愛されてほしい.

Is ついでに limited in its usage to other people only? Can you use it for yourself?

How does one specify who is missed when using (さび)しがる (if you know a better word for “to miss someone,” please let me know)?

I found these example sentences

(きみ)()いなくなる()()()(だち)()(さび)しがり()だろう()()

(かれ)()()()られて()()()()まじ()(さび)しがっている()()かわいそう()()()

私たちは彼がいなくて 寂しがる でしょう。

Do I mark it with [person missed]がいなく[て・と]?

What exactly does it literally? “That [person] who is not here, I/we are lonely (without).”
Knowing it literally helps me to better understand the form.

Thank you in advance.