🍃 Shenmue Tree - a Study "Lounge!" 🍂

[anon33985902]

@WeebPotato

lack of a textbook to understand the nuances of grammar structures. If not, you might run into “do I actually understand the nuance correctly?”. In Japanese there are some grammar points like でも and various conjugations of する and よる which don’t always point to the same nuance. For instance:

Oh yes, I have some textbooks as well as Cure Dolly, which has been my best teacher on grammar points. But to actually experience them on my own has matched up really well with my learning style afterwards.

@WeebPotato

I usually focus on common words, words which define the meaning of a kanji or cover readings one doesn’t encounter often.

Okay good to know! I know that vocab is not a main focus of WK, and their vocab is aimed toward learning the kanji, so learning common vocab should definitely be a side-focus Thanks for this advice!!!

[ChristopherFritz]

My personal recommendation is to create flashcards for the highest frequency words you’re likely to encounter. By seeing a word and its English counterpart, you’re priming yourself to recognize the word (even if you don’t remember it) when reading.

The problem is finding a frequency list that is targeted to the material you’re reading, and being able to easily create flashcards from it. There are people/groups working on this (such as Refold with their JP1K Anki deck, and Migaku with its Chrome browser extension), but a lot of these are still in development, and currently only available to Patreon supporters. (I can give more info and provide links for these if you’re interested.)

[anon33985902]

@ChristopherFritz

My personal recommendation is to create flashcards for the highest frequency words you’re likely to encounter. By seeing a word and its English counterpart, you’re priming yourself to recognize the word (even if you don’t remember it) when reading.

@ChristopherFritz

The problem is finding a frequency list that is targeted to the material you’re reading, and being able to easily create flashcards from it. There are people/groups working on this (such as Refold with their JP1K Anki deck, and Migaku with its Chrome browser extension), but a lot of these are still in development, and currently only available to Patreon supporters. (I can give more info and provide links for these if you’re interested.)

Definitely a good recommendation! But yes I see the issue with finding something. I’ve never heard of the JP1K Anki deck! Or the Migaku Chrome extension??? I use a Chromebook so this may be helpful! Although I don’t want to necessarily pay for anything more right now, so I’d have to see what their Patreon costs are. I’m going to look into these for sure. If I did pay for something more it might be Kitsun. They seem far better than Anki to me at least how everything is situational on a Chromebook it seems.

Thanks to you as well for this guidance (per usual!!!)

[ChristopherFritz]

@anon33985902

If I did pay for something more it might be Kitsun.

Going that route, you’d want to look into Kitsun’s “JLPT N5 Vocabulary” deck. Since the JLPT N5 covers common words, chances are most of the words in that deck will come up in any reading you do.

[anon33985902]

@ChristopherFritz

Going that route, you’d want to look into Kitsun’s “JLPT N5 Vocabulary” deck. Since the JLPT N5 covers common words, chances are most of the words in that deck will come up in any reading you do.

Ugh okay you’re making me want to consider this more! HAH

[yamitenshi]

@anon33985902

for grammar I really want to use reading immersion

I do recommend reading up on or watching some videos about grammar points you encounter. It’s fine to just encounter them naturally and learn them as you go, and there’s not really any need to use an SRS or go for a full-on structured grammar course, but willfully ignoring readily available information in favour of essentially bashing your head into a wall until your brain makes the right connections is probably not the most effective way to go about things.

You can learn grammar purely by encountering it, but it’s going to take a lot more immersion than you currently have, and probably a lot more careful selection of materials (i.e. materials you understand enough of to infer the meaning of things you encounter which are unfamiliar to you). Keep in mind that the people who learn a language in that way (children) are usually surrounded by native speakers 24/7.

@anon33985902

Should I be coupling a flash card system with my reading?

I think the more important thing here is to couple some form of basic vocab resource with your reading. Whether it’s an N5 (and maybe N4) vocab list, the most common 1000 words in Japanese, or something else along those lines doesn’t matter, but you’ll probably want some foundation in vocab. Flashcards just happen to be a decent way to accomplish that.

Knowing some basic vocabulary is also going to help a bunch of grammar stick, since instead of random collections of kana it becomes words with a meaning and might make some intuitive sense.

[anon33985902]

@yamitenshi

willfully ignoring readily available information in favour of essentially bashing your head into a wall until your brain makes the right connections is probably not the most effective way to go about things.

HAHA point well taken! That’s why I like Cure Dolly a lot, I’m just finding myself having to re-watch her first 3 videos just to make sure I’m getting it all, and I’m hesitant to move forward until I do.

@yamitenshi

You can learn grammar purely by encountering it, but it’s going to take a lot more immersion than you currently have, and probably a lot more careful selection of materials (i.e. materials you understand enough of to infer the meaning of things you encounter which are unfamiliar to you). Keep in mind that the people who learn a language in that way (children) are usually surrounded by native speakers 24/7.

I also was talking to crmsnprincess89 about this and graded readers. The only one I have, which I probably impulse purchased a year ago at Barnes & Noble, is recommended level 27, which is even higher than Yotsubato! I may have to look into easier graded readers, but I’m still having so much fun with Yotsuba’s story!

@yamitenshi

I think the more important thing here is to couple some form of basic vocab resource with your reading. Whether it’s an N5 (and maybe N4) vocab list, the most common 1000 words in Japanese, or something else along those lines doesn’t matter, but you’ll probably want some foundation in vocab. Flashcards just happen to be a decent way to accomplish that.

Yes I can see the value of flashcards for sure. I’m just afraid of getting too overwhelmed I suppose. I’ll dig a little deeper into the suggestions you all have given me and I will hopefully come up with some sort of start and go from there!

@yamitenshi

Knowing some basic vocabulary is also going to help a bunch of grammar stick, since instead of random collections of kana it becomes words with a meaning and might make some intuitive sense.

Oh yes, I imagined this too! Especially after reading Yotsubato! But, it does really help to have the furigana to type with my Japanese keyboard, and at least for volume 1 I have the amazing vocab/grammar guide, so I imagine that will help.

…I am a much better writer now than when I was younger, perhaps due to graduate studies, but I am embarrassed to say I also have to look up what most of the grammar acronyms mean…

[Daisoujou]

I do agree with everyone else as far as it being a very good idea to use SRS for vocab and do a basic level of learning grammar and whatnot. One thing I want to add to at least think about –

So I’ve never used the Wanikani self study thing, but it’s basically extra drilling of WK material, right? I know some people use it and swear by it, although I think in a lot of cases they’re using it specifically for material they can’t seem to learn at all, I’m not sure if you’re just doing extra drill of everything or what. You know better than I do if you think you need it, but because too much SRS time really can become a drag, perhaps you could consider if it’s feasible to back off of that, a little? The way I see it, SRS is at its core designed to try to help you retain information through the fewest, furthest spaced repetitions possible. One goal, in that sense, is to use WK as little as possible, while still getting the benefit. Especially for material like this where you are not so much even learning something as you are getting an initial exposure to have SOME idea of it to be able to recognize and not stumble over it in reading, where your real learning will happen (since it’s hard for WK to convey correct word nuances and whatnot).

Just an idea to consider for your time though, don’t mean to discourage you too much from something if it is working out well for you.

[anon33985902]

@Daisoujou

So I’ve never used the Wanikani self study thing, but it’s basically extra drilling of WK material, right? I know some people use it and swear by it, although I think in a lot of cases they’re using it specifically for material they can’t seem to learn at all, I’m not sure if you’re just doing extra drill of everything or what. You know better than I do if you think you need it, but because too much SRS time really can become a drag, perhaps you could consider if it’s feasible to back off of that, a little?

Just an idea to consider for your time though, don’t mean to discourage you too much from something if it is working out well for you.
[/quote]

Hmmm I see what you’re saying. For me I use it to “safely” get answers wrong, see why, and then give myself a chance to attune my mnemonic because clearly something wasn’t working for me. I love how you can create super specific custom quiz’s (like "Level 4 Kanji in Apprentice II) for example. I’m trying not to use it as a way to just study the hour before the real review as a boost to getting things right. And I agree, I should probably back off of the self-study a bit!!! I totally agree about too much SRS, I think that’s another reason I gave up on Bunpro (but there were a lot of reasons).

@Daisoujou

he way I see it, SRS is at its core designed to try to help you retain information through the fewest, furthest spaced repetitions possible. One goal, in that sense, is to use WK as little as possible, while still getting the benefit. Especially for material like this where you are not so much even learning something as you are getting an initial exposure to have SOME idea of it and be able to recognize and not stumble over it in reading, where your real learning will happen (since it’s hard for WK to convey correct word nuances and whatnot).

I like the way you put that - sometimes I forget that SRS is designed to solidify the material in the proper amount of time, not hinder you from moving forward and something you need other auxiliary sources to compensate for Hmmm “use WK as little as possible” I must ponder this idea more! Because Tofugu / WK has been so helpful in getting me started with Japanese, like Kana and all, I think I tend to worship it

@Daisoujou

Just an idea to consider for your time though, don’t mean to discourage you too much from something if it is working out well for you.

You certainly just gave me a lot more to consider! But it’s goooood stuff! Thanks much, per usual, Daisoujou!!!

[bakugames]

@anon33985902

And I agree, I should probably back off of the self-study a bit!!! I totally agree about too much SRS, I think that’s another reason I gave up on Bunpro (but there were a lot of reasons).

What I think is the best is to keep self-study right after a lesson or a review section, with only the items you’ve seen. I usually do two types:

1. a self-study setup for all my apprentice one items right after I finished my lessons. Doesn’t mess with SRS and can be pretty quick.
2. self-study setup for all incorrect items in the last hour, which I also do right after a review session. Guarantees that you’re only seeing the correct items from that batch pretty much every time, and reinforces what you got wrong without messing with SRS. The time limit means that I can’t review items for two hours, which can be inconvenient but I found it’s for the best.

Only having these two means I only use self-study once or twice per day, which only takes around 5-10 minutes each, but I’m getting the most out of it

[yamitenshi]

@anon33985902

give myself a chance to attune my mnemonic

Thing is, you’re not really supposed to rely on the mnemonic beyond the first few iterations of the SRS (and maybe the last few when you haven’t seen an item for a long time). If you find you need the mnemonic for longer than that, that’s a good sign your self study sessions are harming retention rather than helping it.

[anon33985902]

@yamitenshi

Thing is, you’re not really supposed to rely on the mnemonic beyond the first few iterations of the SRS (and maybe the last few when you haven’t seen an item for a long time). If you find you need the mnemonic for longer than that, that’s a good sign your self study sessions are harming retention rather than helping it.

Yes this makes sense as well I may just need to slow down with the lessons, because I think that’s why I tend to forget my mnemonics and feel like I need to keep using the self-study quiz… You’re right though, it could be harmful. Progress with patience is definitely better than progress with impatience!! Thank you, as always, yamitenshi!!!

[anon33985902]

@bakugames

a self-study setup for all my apprentice one items right after I finished my lessons. Doesn’t mess with SRS and can be pretty quick.

HMMMMM I like this strategy VERY much. I may employ it immediately as I’m projected to reach level 7 tomorrow!

@bakugames

self-study setup for all incorrect items in the last hour, which I also do right after a review session. Guarantees that you’re only seeing the correct items from that batch pretty much every time, and reinforces what you got wrong without messing with SRS. The time limit means that I can’t review items for two hours, which can be inconvenient but I found it’s for the best.

I did not know this was an option!!! Again, not messing with the SRS system, but also helping you hone in on what you need to focus on most! I am going to have to figure this out tonight

@bakugames

Only having these two means I only use self-study once or twice per day, which only takes around 5-10 minutes each, but I’m getting the most out of it

Yes I will often do like all of level 5, for instance. It takes a good 30-45 minutes if I don’t step away from it. Toooooo much!

[anon33985902]

@ChristopherFritz @yamitenshi @bakugames @Daisoujou

Okay fortuitously (perhaps?) I stumbled upon the thread for Koohi.cafe earlier… I’ve been setting it up with the vocab I’ve encountered in よつばと! so far, but also it has しろくまカフェ as a book to pull a vocab list from, which is also another manga I now own.

Do any of you all have experience with this as a flashcard / SRS system of learning? Seems pretty cool to me…

[Daisoujou]

I haven’t used Koohi myself (I just went from Genki’s vocab and what I had learned on WK at that point into mining sentences myself), but I’ve heard good stuff, and Vanilla seems to recommend it in his thread on learning to read here, so I trust that it can be a good resource. His exact advice seemed to be learning about the 2000 most common first… but I mean, because those words are so common, most of them are going to inevitably come up quickly on Koohi anyway I’d imagine, so it’s kind of all the same.

[anon33985902]

@Daisoujou

I haven’t used Koohi myself (I just went from Genki’s vocab and what I had learned on WK at that point into mining sentences myself), but I’ve heard good stuff, and Vanilla seems to recommend it in his thread on learning to read here, so I trust that it can be a good resource. His exact advice seemed to be learning about the 2000 most common first… but I mean, because those words are so common, most of them are going to inevitably come up quickly on Koohi anyway I’d imagine, so it’s kind of all the same.

Very interesting! I just input the first 11 vocab/kanji I didn’t know in よつばと! and quizzed myself on them immediately. I did pretty awful, but this seems great!!! Koohi kind of acts like a dictionary in and of itself, and although it doesn’t parse like ichi.moe, being able to add the words I have to look up to my SRS is like killing 2 birds with 1 stone! So far I like, if you couldn’t tell

[Belthazar]

@anon33985902

Hmm it’s a little too small for movie popcorn perhaps some Skittles??

I’d say it’s a red envelope, intended for giving out new year’s money. And doing a reverse image search on the photo itself turned up this, so yeah. Interestingly, that one’s got the seal script written in a more modern font instead, so I can tell that my guess was correct, but I still can’t tell you what it’s doing there.

[anon33985902]

@Belthazar

this

you just blew my mind. it makes total sense, since red is the color of fortune and luck for the Chinese new year, if i’m not mistaken, and that’s what they say it’s for! Haha it’s just something random my mom found in her years of collecting this and that! Thank you for finding this!!!

[anon33985902]

Okay, I’ve done a lot of “Japanese language soul searching” today

That said, I’m thinking about making a major change to my routine based on what you all suggested earlier.

1. Cool it with the self-study quiz: Yep, it was definitely taking up too much of my time, and really still concentrating my time and energy in the direction of WaniKani which, as was pointed out, already has a method of SRS learning that is efficient and effective. I ultimately think I was trying to be too controlling over my WK timeline. What true harm is done if I don’t get 98-100% of the reviews correct? It’s about progress, not perfection.

2. Graded Readers / Text Books: I need to look at these more. I need to obtain some beginner graded readers, and I need to consider getting MNN or Genki. I like the thrill of jumping straight into my Manga that is 10 levels above me even if I only get the minimal out of 2 pages, but the time/energy saved on self-study quizzes I can now put elsewhere.

3. Flashcard System: Very fortuitously, I would say, I stumbled upon the Koohi.cafe thread today with curiosity to see what it was. After checking it out, I am fairly convinced it is the perfect way for me to look up, log, and SRS review all of the new kanji and vocab I’m encountering by reading anything at all. It appears the site may still be under some construction, but, overall it’s complete enough for me!

4. Cure Dolly still rocks.

THANK YOU ALL for your suggestions and critique of my study habits today. I needed this very much, and I’m excited to take things in a newer direction, even if it means leveling up slower on WK. I just want to have fun with the Japanese language!

@Daisoujou @bakugames @yamitenshi @WeebPotato @ChristopherFritz

[ChristopherFritz]

@anon33985902

I like the thrill of jumping straight into my Manga that is 10 levels above me even if I only get the minimal out of 2 pages

If you’re looking up grammar as you read manga, and continue watching Cure Dolly’s videos, you can probably get by without a physical textbook.

You’ll know already if you’re the type of person who does well with a textbook or not, so if you believe a textbook would be beneficial, definitely go for it.

But if you’re unsure, it also doesn’t hurt to wait a bit and see what you can learn utilizing look-ups, Cure Dolly, and maybe a free online grammar resource such as Tae Kim or the impressively single-paged Sakubi.