Reading ブラックジャックによろしく manga exercises (p14-and up)

No, no, that’s not what it means here at all. Maybe the dictionary is referring to another use of まま, but it’s not this one. In fact, I wrote about it on this forum a while back in one of our analysis threads. I did an extremely etymological analysis of まま. In essence, it means ‘state’ or ‘condition’, and sometimes refers to a sort of ‘status quo’. So yes, @Shannon-8, you remembered correctly.

I think the 2nd is closer to ‘Why didn’t you let/make him die?’ (Of course, ‘let’ makes a lot more sense here.) The difference between the 2nd and the 3rd is that 〜てやる is like 〜てあげる, so it has the nuance of doing something for someone else, and makes it clear that the speaker considers letting the old man pass on without having to undergo a pointless operation a good thing, almost like it’s a ‘favour’ they could have done for the old man.

EDIT: BTW everyone, so… gonna be needing to spend more time studying stuff that isn’t Japanese. I’m actually in prépa, (I think YanagiPablo knows what that is. Zizka might as well.) which is normally quite intense. I need to revise coz the entrance exams are happening in about a month, it’s just that I haven’t been in the mood to study lately. I might still come online during breaks, but knowing that I’m kinda addicted to giving detailed explanations and so on, I need to limit my time here (so I don’t keep reading new threads and writing new explanations, and so I don’t eat up time for actual breaks). Continue to feel free to tag me, but also know that I might not come online at all if you don’t (except in the evenings, French time). When all is said and done, hopefully I’ll be admitted to a good engineering school in August, and I’ll be able to restart my Japanese studies in full force, but for now, that’s that.

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Well, I was referring to weblio’s entry:

Actually, there’s another entre for そのまま:
1〈もとのまま〉

そのままにしておく

leave [let] something alone [rest there]

You’re the person who had talked about it then. Since the explanations are scattered I don’t know where it was unfortunately.

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Ok, I went looking. If we use kanji, it’s 間々 for ‘sometimes’ and 儘 for ‘condition/state’. There’s a pitch accent difference. See if you can find recordings on a site like Forvo. Basically though,
For 儘: 1st syllable low(L), 2nd high(H), and the particle that comes after is low (PL)
For 間々: two possibilities

  • HL-PL
  • LH-PH (particle high)
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We’ll try not to be missing you too hard, @Jonapedia. You gotta prioritize, mon. (Waah!! A MONTH!!!)

That word 儘 is hard to grasp; I think it doesn’t have a direct equivalent.
But, yes, here (particularly with その まま as you found out), it is about the idea of a continuous unchanged thing.

I think the idea is that,
そのまま死なせてやる
decomposition: that まま / to.die+causative+do.for.him
=> make him be able to die without changes
=> let him die peacefully

(For what it’s worth, Google translate gives “Let me die as it is”)

And if we look at the translation made in the wasabi site (I put the link here), they translated the whole sentence (どうしてそのまま死なせてやらなかった) as:
“Why didn’t you just let him die?"

そのまま rendered by “just”.

8✍️

やるなといった腹膜透析まで行うなんて…

Analysis

腹膜透析: 【ふくまくとうせき】peritoneal dialysis;
:bulb: Peritoneal dialysis ( PD ) is a type of dialysis which uses the peritoneum in a person’s abdomenas the membrane through which fluid and dissolved substances are exchanged with the blood.
-Wikipedia
:thought_balloon:といった: such… as; new expression for me as indicated by the thinking :thought_balloon: icon,
やる: Jonapedia said it was the same as doing but with あげる connotation. So to do and give at the same time is my understanding of it.
:thought_balloon:行う【おこなう】to perform;
I was familiar with this one as in “to go” somewhere but this time it has the different meaning of “to perform”.
なんて can have many meanings but I think the kana version is linked to such as as well.

:speech_balloon:You’ve done the peritoneal dialysis and now you perform such things as
:thinking: I’m missing まで here. The やる at the beginning is also bothering me. I think I don’t quite understand やる just yet to perfection.
Anyhow, this sentence probably links to the next sentence where what to perform will probably be explicitly explained.

By the way as an aside, I’ve been looking into other language communities where there could be more participation from the members. As my therapist says, I’m obsessed with performance and always try to find something better.

Summary

Duo Lingo: it continues to go downhill. Out of ten topics, one is language related.
Jisho forum: the last message dates back to 2015 so it’s pretty much dead.
Japanese Language Stack Exchange: an accurate and reliable source of information and usually with quick answers. Due to its format, it’d be impossible to run the activity over there.
Word Reference Forum: my first impression was that it was very martially run (as in military style). It’s not a bad thing, I mean, it has advantages but I’ve asked the moderation and it’d be impossible to run the activity there. Each thread must be about a single question/translation aspect.
Reddit: learn Japanese: I’ve never used reddit in my life but again, judging from the format, it wouldn’t be possible to run the activity there.
Japanese Page Forum: dead link, doesn’t exist anymore.
Japan Reference: very small active user base in grammar. I’m not under the impression this is where people would join in and participate in the activity.
Japanesepod101 forum: dead, hasn’t seen any activity for months.
Hiragana Ninja: dead forum, no activity in years.


And that’s about the first page and a half of google. I haven’t tested what comes on the second page but that often proves not to be worthwhile.


9 (claimed)

:writing_hand: Transcription:
くどいようだが単なる延命処置『は』国民『の』医療費『の』無駄遣い〔だ〕

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Just speculation of mine; but maybe he is saying that he has gone so far as doing that.

Also, やるなといった ending in past form it is I think describing 腹膜透析.
やるな = the ~な at the end si probably the rough negative imperative;
so やるなといった腹膜透析 : the peritoneal dialysis I told you not to do.

やる な と いった 腹膜 透析 まで 行う なんて…
Decomposition: to.do+DONT [quotation] to.say+past peritoneus.dialysis [until] to.perform.by.yourself [expletive]
=> You have performed even the peritoneal dialysis I told you not to do.
Whit なんて a sort of expletive “how!, what!”; usually at the beginning of sentence.

(PS: the wasabi translation wrote simply “I told you not to do that peritoneal dialysis.”)

EDIT: I see however that おこなう is in non-past form…
Is Shiratori referring to a dialysis that Saitou already did; or to one he may do in the future ?
Eg: What, you will perform even the peritoneal dialysis I told you not to do…
A way of hinting Saitou not to even try to do that ?

Again, for what it’s worth, Google translates produces: “Do not even do peritoneal dialysis
And if I remove the なんて at the end it changes to “Do even peritoneal dialysis

The key here is to understand what なんて adds to the sentence…

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9:

くどいようだが単なる延命処置『は』国民『の』医療費『の』無駄遣い〔だ〕

国民【こくみん】nation, people;
医療費【いりょうひ】medical fees;
無駄遣い【むだづかい】waste of money;


Last time we had two consecutive の YanagiPablo said that の(1) and の(2) were independently associated to C in:
Aの(1)Bの(2)Cだ

…which in this case would mean:
:speech_balloon:It’s a waste of money for the nation and in medical fees.

Unless the successive の are related to each other:
[国民]のpossessive→[医療費]のpossessive→[無駄遣い]+copula[だ]=
:speech_balloon:It’s a waste of the nation’s medical fees


くどい: tedious, 〜い adj.;
よう: appearing, looking;
だが: but, however;
単なる【たんなる】mere, simple;
:thinking: for this one, I first thought it was 単+なる(to become);
延命【えんめい】life lengthening;
処置【しょち】treatment;

:speech_balloon:It looks tedious but life lengthening measures is a waste of the nation’s medical resources/fees
(If it’s wrong please don’t tell me the answer, tell me where I’m wrong so I can figure out for myself).

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Your interpretation is correct, I think. The なんて means ‘something like that’. It can be condescending, but it depends on the situation. Here… I don’t think it is. I think the whole sentence translates as ‘Going so far as to do the peritoneal dialysis that I said not to do, or anything like that…’. It works well with what comes next, which is roughly ‘This may seem repetitive, but procedures just for the sake of prolonging life are a waste of (the money received through) citizens’ medical expenses.’ (I’m adding the spoiler for Zizka’s sake, but his translation is correct. I just wouldn’t say ‘looks’. Maybe ‘sounds’ or ‘seems’. Also, ‘tedious’ isn’t the only definition of くどい. There’s something slightly better. The meaning is close enough though.) He’s using ‘doing the peritoneal dialysis’ as an example of something useless in his opinion.

I had time to read before it was spoilered :stuck_out_tongue:, doesn’t matter :slight_smile:.

I think in English it doesn’t really make sense to me however.
:speech_balloon:What, you will perform even the peritoneal dialysis I told you not to do…

:speech_balloon:This may seem repetitive but procedures for the sake of prolonging life are a waste the citizen’s medical expenses.

I don’t understand the だが here and it’s relationship with “this may seem repetitive”. What may seem repetitive? That he’s telling Saitou again that he’s wasting time/resources on the old man? Is that it? Is it in the sense of:

:speech_balloon:To the risk of repeating myself…

Also, medical fees can’t be wasted in my understanding of things. You can waste money on medical fees but the fees themselves can’t really be « wasted » in my perception of things.

10:

:writing_hand:Transcription:

:cyclone:《白鳥先生…医者『が』患者『を』助けよう『と』するのがそんな『に』いけない事ですか…》


白鳥先生: Saitou’s tutor, the man with the glasses who has a very utilitarian view of life and human beings in general.
医者『が』doctor + subject particle;
患者『を』patient + direct object particle;
助けよう:
:thinking: so that’s the verb 助ける【たるける】to help with a 〜よう suffix. Am I supposed to interpret this as “seem to help”? Is that something I can do with all verbs, adding 〜よう at the verb ending to express “seem to”?

するのが: knowledge check :ledger:
The の here turns する “to do” into a gerund “doing”. Actually a nominaliser should be called a gerundifier (it the term existed!)

そんな: so much, so, like that;
いけない: wrong, not good: いけない事: wrong thing.

:speech_balloon:Doctor Shirotori, is it a wrong thing for a doctor to seem to help and do other things like that for a patient.

Pretty confident about that one. Just 助けよう which might end up biting mon derrière.

Yes, it’s something like that. ‘At the risk of repeating myself…’. I think it’s because he has said before that procedures that just extend someone’s life (or rather, to keep them alive when their body wouldn’t otherwise be able to keep going) are a waste of resources (in his opinion). I agree with you though. ‘Wasting fees’ sounds strange in English. I think, however, since they mention 国民, that it might be a reference to the stuff that citizens have already paid as part of a national programme, perhaps through taxes, so there’s already a pool of money dedicated to ‘medical fees’. You’ll have to check how Japan’s healthcare system works (which is something I don’t know much about right now).

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As @Jonapedia mentioned, ~なんて = “things like ~”. That doesn’t work well in English though so I like to translate it as “to think that ~”: “to think that you’d go as far as to perform the peritoneal dialysis I told you not to do”. It does sound quite condescending to my ears, like “I can’t believe you did that”.

Bingo. くどいようだが = くどいようですが = “It may seem like I’m repeating myself, but…” in a “may I remind you that…” sort of way.

“Fees” might not be the right word, 国民医療費 is the national medical care expenditure; Shiratori is saying that life-prolonging treatments are a waste of budget/tax money. (無駄遣い: 無駄 ‘useless’ + 遣い, fancy kanji for 使い)

~ようとする = “to attempt to ~”. For ichidan verbs, replace る with よう; for godan verbs, replace the last う-sound with おう (e.g. 救う→救おう, 治す→治そう).
To express “seem to”, take the masu-stem and add そう, which turns it into a na-adjective: 助けそうな医師 -> “a doctor who seems to help/save [the patient]”.

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@ayamedori @Jonapedia
So helpful! Thank you!

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11 claiming:

Transcription

私はこういう患者(かんじゃ)『を』何百(なんびゃく)『も』()てきた


✩New Vocabulary✩
こういう:such, this sort of…;
何百(なんびゃく) : hundreds;


:speech_balloon:I’ve also seen hundreds of patients like this one
The only thing I’m not 100% is that も meaning “even” there. Otherwise I’m 100% final answer Shannon would be proud of.

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As it follows a quantity (何百も) maybe it is this 3rd definition (from jisho.org) :

even; as much as; as many as; as far as; as long as; no less than; no fewer than (​used for emphasis or to express absence of doubt regarding a quantity, etc.)

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12.

Transcription:
:eye:‍:left_speech_bubble:死『に』ゆく(もの)『は』静か『に』みとるべき〔だ〕
✩New Vocabulary✩
死『に』ゆく(もの):guessing: a person who is about to die? Lit. death (destination) moving person.
静かに:quiet+adverbial に=quietly
みとる:v. to perceive, to understand
べき:should, must, ought to…
:speech_balloon:You should perceive calmly a person who is about to die…
Final but not sure answer.

Your interpretations are spot on, except for one: みとる, in my dictionary, is 看取る, and means 'to be at someone’s bedside and care for him/her". Your understanding for 死にゆく者 is also correct. ゆく is another form of 行く(いく). Thus, the translation should instead by ‘You should quietly care for a person who is dying/about to die.’ Well done.

Side note: please, I beg of you all, know your definitions if you’re going to use technical terms.

Off-topic rant with a link to the relevant post and thread. (I'm sorry, I need to vent. But really, please, don't do such things...)

The reason I’m still online is because I spent 2h7min writing a 3334-word post on what a ‘part of speech’ is because somebody just kept insisting that ‘suffix’ ought to be a ‘part of speech’ = a ‘word class’ (according to him) and refused (or so it seems) to check the actual definition of the word.

Here’s the post (article/mini-treatise, really) about what ‘part of speech’ means if any of you are interested. In it, I translate the Japanese definition of 品詞=‘part of speech’ in order to explain why he was wrong since he kept saying, in essence, ‘Japanese is different from English, so your English definitions aren’t valid’. I’m exhausted right now, and I hope I don’t wake up tomorrow morning to see another reply for him containing yet another contradiction that clearly means he didn’t read my reply or the links I included.

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Hmm… sorry you feel that way. As I said, people seldom change their mind about their convictions so I fear the time you’re investing won’t have much of an impact. Even if you manage to make a point, there’s always a way to move the goals, cite different sources say you interpret words differently, etc… At the end of the day, why not simply let go?

Thanks for the feedback! It was not an easy sentence.

(considering he’s already replying, he likely didn’t read your message which further demonstrates that people would rather ignore data in order to safeguard their convictions).

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