May 3rd Daily Reading ブラックジャックによろしく Manga

As well as the current picture, you might as well keep the links to all the previous pictures as well.

You could have a table in the OP listing links to where each bit of discussion starts, and have the current link above the table, nice and big. E.g. when we have one thread for a whole manga volume, we’ll use a table in the OP to list links to the start of the discussion for each chapter.

If you have links to important points within the discussion it seriously mitigates the impact of scrolling.

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If asked “what is anuria”, I would have been unable to reply; however 無尿 is straightforward: 無 = nothing (as in the zen concept; or as in a possible writing of ない (無い)); and 尿 = urine.

As urine is the main way to evacuate toxins out of our body, the absence of it would indeed be a serious problem.

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@YanagiPablo

が here is actually used as a form of politeness.

It indicates hesitance and usually carries the idea of something like ‘but I wanted to ask you first/I wasn’t sure’. It’s often used to present a statement to a (social) superior, especially if a response is required or if one wants to give the impression that he/she is not imposing himself on the listener. For example, a student might say to a teacher: 「あの…先生、ちょっと質問がありますが…」= ‘uh… Teacher, I have a question…’ It softens the statement and indicates that the student is respectfully waiting for the teacher’s reply. You can also use it when calling up a hotel to make enquiries for a reservation, even though as a customer, you technically are above the hotel staff in the hierarchy created by the context of service.

Well done. :-)

I’m not going to verify this in a more formal dictionary, but that’s what I was taught in a show for kids discussing the origins of Chinese characters. The context given was a ceremony in which chicken’s blood was used to seal a pact of brotherhood, so yes, you might say it’s a reference to sacrificial or ceremonial practices.

The information you found in your next post is correct. However, what you need to know is what the て-form can be used for in general.

If it’s at the end of a complete sentence, it’s usually meant to be an abbreviated 〜てください. If, however, it seems like the sentence is not complete or the sentence you see can’t possibly be a request or an instruction, then you need to know what て does in the middle of a sentence. So far, I’ve seen you translate 〜して as ‘and do ~’, something which I something prefer to write as ‘doing ~’. That’s not wrong, but there’s another possible meaning.

Fundamentally, the て-form is a connecting form and indicates that the て action is related to the main action.

One way they can be related is sequential. AてB, where A and B are verbs, can mean ‘A then B’, like in「ご飯を終えて、デザートを食べた」= ‘(I) finished my meal, and then ate dessert’. Another way they can be related is by happening simultaneously. We saw this in 無理してがんばる, which is literally ‘to do the impossible and make an effort’. However, these two actions definitely happen at the same time, because the phrase I just typed makes no sense. Most of the time though, the sequential nuance is stronger/more likely. This ‘simultaneous’/‘sequential’ relationship can also take the form of a list of actions that happen around the same time. Finally, they can be in a cause-and-effect relationship. て is (probably) the weakest way to express causation in Japanese. For instance, 「カラオケをしたかったけど、結局けっきょく金がんくて、帰ってしまった。」=’(We) wanted to go for karaoke, but in the end, we had no money and ended up going home.’ It can still be translated by ‘and’ in some cases, and in my example, the actions are almost sequential, but it’s really about cause and effect.

With that knowledge, we can analyse Saitou’s words. He’s listing what’s been happening to the patient, which we could interpret as a combination of ‘simultaneous actions’ and ‘justification’, but in this case, it’s really the simultaneous action/listing function that is being used. The reason the form is 続いていて is because he’s saying that the patient’s anuria ‘has continued’ and ‘is still continuing’. It has to be a continuous state. Another example of this, but with て(ください): 待っていて(ください) means ‘wait (for me)’, just like 待って, but with the nuance that the person who accedes to this request will be waiting, possibly standing somewhere for a while expecting the requester to turn up, whereas 待って just asks someone to stop and wait for an instant.

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Only four people voted and we’re at 50/50 so I don’t think it’s representative.

What I suggest is that tomorrow I would start a new thread for episode 3. We’d continue where we left off today. I’d call it Episode 3: Part I (although it’s not really part I but for simplicity sake we’ll pretend it is).

We’ll stick to that thread until we reach around 50 replies, then whoever writes down the 50th reply will start a second thread titled Episode 3: Part II and so on.

As for editing the first message, they were tons of suggestions so voting for each one would impracticable at this point in time. We could edit as we go along and eventually we’ll find our feet and have a system which works.

If 50 replies isn’t right, comment about it and we’ll increase the ceiling or lower it.

Unless someone else wants to host tomorrow and approach it differently. In that case, I’ll follow along whatever that person decides.

@Jonapedia You could use an avatar, at the moment you look like everyone else (so could Shannon with her genius t-shirt picture).

But if it’s ongoing, shouldn’t it be ~て+いる as opposed to ~て+いて?

Also how do you determine is it’s sequential or simultaneous? I mean it’s a pretty big difference. Sometimes meanings will overlap like んだ for emphasis and explanations (they overlap, they’re not that different so mistaking the function doesn’t have a big impact in understanding the sentence).

If you feel like you’ve explained there’s no need to reply. I’ll read your reply again until I understand.

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OK, since it looks like today has been a slow day (we started out by discussing format issues, after all), I’ll try tackling the panels which I think most of us will avoid. They’re likely to take a while to analyse after all. They stumped me for a bit earlier, and there are some things I’m honestly still not sure about, so I might need to do some searching or ask a friend, but this will be a good way for me to record my interpretation anyhow. Before that though…

@Zizka

50 replies sounds fine to me. I have to admit that I'm not entirely sure how the 1st post formatting works, but I suppose we'll figure it out as we go along.

It would really be best if the first post were editable for everyone, because a longer thread is probably gonna mean needing to change the top post from time to time. Unless someone has another idea? What I was thinking: perhaps we can try to post 3 screenshots per thread by default (inside triangles, if possible), because that should get us to 50 messages. By the way, you might want to read @Shannon-8’s thoughts on formatting on the May 2nd thread. In essence, she’s saying that we might want to try collapsing as many things as possible so scrolling just turns into a summary-skimming experience.

------End of formatting thoughts------

Now then, I think F, G and H are the panels that look hard. I’ll start with F. Anyone is welcome to take the other two if they’re interested, but if no one speaks up, I’ll just move on to the next panel when I’m done.

F

患者 は 自宅 で 倒れ 意識 不明 の まま ここ へ 運ばれて きた……
patient [topic] self-home [location] fall-continuative consciousness not-bright ['s] state here [direction] transport-passive-TE come-past

Translation

The patient collapsed in his own home and was transported all the way here…
かんじゃ: patient
じたく: one’s own home (the patient’s in this case)
たおれ: continuative form (I think this is the term) of 倒れる, which means ‘to fall/collapse’. The continuative form has the same meaning as 倒れて in this sentence. It can also be used as a noun describing the action designated by a verb. E.g. in お待たせ しました, 待たせ is technically the noun form of 待たせる (to make wait), so the phrase literally means ‘I did [polite] the act of making (you/a customer etc) wait’.
いしき: consciousness
ふめい: literally ‘not bright’. Means ‘not clear’ here i.e. the patient was not clearly conscious = semi-conscious.
まま: describes a pre-defined state. So the patient was transported in a state of semi-consciousness
はこばれて: to be transported. 運ぶ=to transport/convey
〜てきた: a structure that indicates that the action of ~ was done in a progressive manner up to the point that it ended. Hence ‘transported all the way (here)’ as opposed to ‘transported (here)’.

それ にも かかわらず 手術 が 行われた の は 一日 たった 後 だ
that to-even be-related-[not-state] surgery [subject] conduct-passive-past [nominaliser] [topic] one-day pass-past after to-be

Translation

In spite of that, the performing of the surgery happened only after one day had passed.
にも かかわらず: this expression is actually a unit. かかわらず literally means ‘without being related’, while にも indicates what is the sentence is ‘not related to’. As a result, its figurative meaning is ‘although’ or ‘in spite of’. かかわる can be written with various kanji, but it fundamentally means ‘to be related/linked’. かかわら is the negative stem of this verb, used for forming things that mean ‘to not be related’. Negative stem + ず means ‘without [verb]-ing’, and it usually indicates a state in which that action has not happened.
しゅじゅつ: surgery. Literally ‘hand-technique’.
おこなわれた: to be conducted/performed/organised. 行う=to conduct/perform/organise
の: a nominaliser similar to こと, creating a block that means ‘the act of [verb]-ing’
たった後=経った後: 経つ=(for time) to pass. (Thanks @ayamedori for telling me this was the verb, not the adverb!) Hence 一日(が)たった=a day passed. Verb past form (ending in た/だ) + 後 = ‘after [verb]’

G

今 に も 死にそう な 患者 を 前に すぐに 手術 を しなかった 理由 が なに か 分かる か?
now [time] [inclusive] die-looks-like [adjective] patient [object] before immediately surgery [object] do-not-past reason [subject] what [question] understand [question]?

Translation

Do you know what the reason that the patient, who even now looks like he will die, was not operated on immediately earlier?
今にも: 今に just emphasises that the point in time being discussed is ‘now’. も is something like ‘even’, which is just a step away from its usual meaning of ‘also’.
しにそう: the continuative form of 死ぬ (it’s the ‘masu stem’ i.e. the form you put in front of ます for the polite conjugation) is 死に. Masu stem + そう = an adjective meaning ‘looks like [verb]’.
りゆう: reason
理由が何か わかるか: Japanese tends to put questions in front of verbs without any extra particles. So the question becomes the object: ‘Do you knowわかる what the reason is?’

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シャノンの提案を読みました
Can you understand what I said :slight_smile:?

Collapsing triangles could be encouraged if a paragraph is longer than 5 lines or sentences, as a guideline.

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ていて is necessary because the sentence isn’t finished. He’s saying something like ‘since yesterday, the patient has been in state of anuria, and it’s continuing, and続いていて his BUN has risen to 110…’ Do you see? It’s like the ‘and’ in my translation (which is not word-for-word, just in case that’s not clear).

Yes and no. It's true that things happening at the same time and things happening one after another are not the same, but sometimes it's not that important or clear which it is. And to be honest, I think that with て, sequential actions are much more common. Most of the time though, context helps.

My example using 無理してがんばる was meant to show that sometimes, logically, the actions can’t happen literally one after another, and so they have to be interpreted together. It’s the same way you can make guesses in English (or in French, if it happens you’re more comfortable with that):
I had dinner and I ate dessert.
J’ai dîné et j’ai pris le dessert.

In both of these examples, you could potentially interpret the sentence as meaning I had dinner and dessert at the same time. There’s nothing stopping me from adding ‘at the same time’/« en même temps » at the end of both sentences. They’re still grammatically correct. However, most of the time, logically, dinner is finished before dessert is served. You see what I mean? The ‘and’/« et » is ambiguous, just like て, but logic and context helps us fill in the gaps, and most of the time, ‘and’, just like て, indicates something sequential, but not always.

EDIT: はい、よくわかりました。And yes, I think collapsing everything might not be a good idea then. Honestly, I think the ‘summary’ for each collapsed section should be a sentence if possible? One-word headings are OK, of course, but they provide almost no information.

About an avatar… I’ll see if I can think of something… I’m personally fine with being ‘incognito’, but I guess it’s easier when I’m identifiable.

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Oops, only saw this now, sorry haha. It’s a different たった here: 一日が経った後

Well, my idea was to have one thread per episode (that is, between 20 to 50 pages of the manga, it depends on the episode; we are in the middle of episode 3 currently).

In that episode thread, the first message would be a wiki (so, editable by all).

Then, each time a new “part” thread is created, the first message of the “episode” thread is modified, to put a link to the new part.

The first message of the “part” don’t need to be editable, just a picture of the two-page with letters;
and people can start taking and analyzing texts;

Then when the whole two-pages of the manga are done, someone posts a new message, with a picture of the next two-pages, and their letters (that is why I think page+letter would be better when claiming/creating an interpretation).
And he would also edit the 1st message of the “episode” thread, to change the link to the current reading page (which would be some post under the “part” thread).

Someone (or the same person) could also update the wiki message of the “episode” to put all the summaries (japanese sentences + interpretations, with a link to the proper post explaining it).

Mmmh, actually the “episode” thing could be a wiki-post inside of a thread devoted to the whole manga.

Particularly interesting explanations could also be directly linked from the “episode” post.

It could look like this:


See here


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For a motion verb (like 運ぶ) can’t ~てくる / ~ていく have just a spatial meaning (“until here”/“from here”) ?

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Ah yeah ok, I get it now. Thank you.

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@YanagiPablo
If you want to host tomorrow you can edit it as you wish. Otherwise I’ll take over but I might miss a lot of suggestions. I generally volunteer because otherwise I’m unsure if others would but if you have ideas as to how to do it, I’d encourage you to do it.

@ayamedori Oh yes… thanks so much, I didn’t think of that possibility at all. I like kanji so much (probably because they’re familiar) that I usually interpret stuff without kanji as the most common hiragana-only word that matches. I would have caught it if I had seen 経った. Thanks again, it makes so much more sense than たった=ただ :joy:

@YanagiPablo So something like a thread that acts as a contents page? I think that’s a good idea, honestly. Also, I didn’t know you could hyperlink text to posts like that. Now I understand how your idea would work. In that case, yes, we could keep adding links to the screenshot currently being translated.

Yes, my mistake. I forgot that what I just said is more valid for a progression over time (like ‘the economy has been getting worse and worse’ or ‘the outlook has been getting better and better’). However, while your translations (‘until’ and ‘from’) are completely correct, I still think that adding 〜て来る/〜て行く (if it’s a spatial meaning, I think using kanji is valid, since that the literal meaning of these verbs. :stuck_out_tongue: I could be wrong though. Haha.) adds a sense of continuity, because just ここへ運ばれた would have fully expressed the idea of ‘being transported here’, right? I think we have something similar in French: “depuis chez lui jusqu’à l’hôpital” versus “de chez lui à l’hôpital”. Both are technically correct, but the first is usually more natural because there’s continuity, right?

Not in French I don’t think. There’s a first meaning (sequence) but if you wanted to say you ate both at the same time an adverb would be expected. No one would think it could be one or the other. It’s either with an adverb or without.

From what I understand 〜て as a sequence is more frequent than 〜て to indicate at the same time. So と could be used to link nouns while 〜て can be used to link verbs then (among other things).

I’m going to do H in a separate post because the first with F & G is getting too long to reliably edit. Also, I’m gonna stop right after this because it’s taking too long. Will probably reply to other things tomorrow. I wanted to finish F in half an hour, but it took me 1.5h to finish even though I already understood the sentence at the start. :joy: (half-crying, half-laughing) I won’t have time for anything else at this rate…
(Note: I’m typing the pronunciations in the explanation instead of as furigana. I will split the kana kanji-by-kanji)

H

常識的 に 考えて 手遅れ だった から だ
commonsensical [adverb] consider-TE hand-lateness be-past because be

Translation

Thinking about it commonsensically, it’s because it’s too late.
じょう/しき/てき: 常識=common sense/knowledge. 的=an ending that turns a kanji block into an adjective (it has a similar function in Chinese, although its overall function in Chinese is like の’s in Japanese). The result is な-adjective. Adding に turns it into an adverb.
かんがえて: 考える=to think/consider.
て/おくれ: ‘too late’ or ‘the state of being too late’. I think it’s used like an adjective, but grammatically, it’s treated like a noun (so we have to add の after it and so on…) The reason I said ‘hand-lateness’: I’m trying to prove that even native Japanese compound words function with the same logic as kanji compounds. Realise this, and it’ll be easier to see Japanese as a whole, and not just kanji + everything else. And yes, so, if you reach out your hand and it’s late, that means you’re ‘taking action too late’. Logical, right?
…[verb]からだ: This is a way of saying ‘the reason is [verb+the whole sentence that came before it]’ This is the more complete way to respond to the question ‘why?’: 「〜〜〜からです・だ」, instead of stopping at から

EDIT to respond to another post: @Zizka

True, I think everyone interprets it as a sequence, especially because the passé composé used in my example is a tense that means ‘the action is completed’, which is why the adverb is needed. But what I meant was that the words describing the action stay exactly the same, it’s just that you need to add an adverb (i.e. more context) in order to make the meaning clear. The « et » itself doesn’t reveal whether it’s a sequence or not, even though it makes more sense and is more common to interpret it as a sequence if there’s no context. So you have to guess based on context and logic (i.e. can those particular actions even happen at the same time?). See what I mean?

And yes, you can see と as the noun linker, and て as the verb linker. Does it make more sense now?

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Is it sequential here? The 〜て I mean.

You… could see it that way? But I think it’s more cause-and-effect here. Another way of phrasing it: ‘If you think about it commonsensically, (you will conclude that) it’s because it was too late.’

PS: Everyone, I think I’ll take a break tomorrow and maybe only come on after 7pm (GMT/UTC +2h) for 1-2h maximum. Need to sort some stuff out, including how all my Japanese stuff (this forum + my own studying) should fit into my current schedule. You can tag me if you’re really stuck and can’t find anything online so that I’ll get an email and respond when I come online, but I probably won’t scroll through all the translations like I usually do.

I’m confused about the 〜て :dizzy_face: it’ll get better with practice.

日本語を練習すると分かります。