Learning through Translating: ブラックジャックによろしく episode 4: 夏雲

だし is copula だ + particle し, どうしよう is an expression made up of どう “how” and しよう, volitional form of する.

(に)なったら is the tara-form of (に)なる; ~たら is the most versatile of the four-ish ways to say “if” in Japanese.

うしろめたい (adjective) = “to feel guilty”.

来る(きたる) originally came from 来至る (きいたる) and later became 来る(くる). Nowadays きたる is barely used, it has an official feel to it so you won’t encounter it in conversation much. 来れません(これません)is short for 来られません(こられません), the negative potential form of くる.

No problem at all! Explaining grammar lets me refresh my knowledge and look into etymologies more, so it’s my pleasure really :smile:

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Once again you beat me to it! Will read the replies next time :sweat_smile:

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Outdated message which I didn’t edit. Like I mention later they’re identical and you guys confirm that one was used before the other.

I do miss Shannon’s participation though. Her energy was contagious.

Thanks, I appreciate it, and you’re welcome. Dropping by does help me to learn a few new words from time to time, and like ayamedori said, I often end up digging into the origins of various words and structures in the process. Just a heads-up though: I may ‘disappear’ for one or two months around June and July, because I’ll have entrance exams to take (les concours d’entrée des écoles d’ingénieurs). I should be back by early August though.

I see that all the questions have been answered already, which is good. I’ll just add a random fact about this adjective then:

後ろめたい came from 後ろ目痛し. As you might know, 〜し was the end-of-sentence form of modern い-adjectives in Old Japanese, so 痛し=痛い. 後ろの目 is literally ‘the eye(s) behind’, which refers to the eyes of the world (e.g. those of other people) that watch us. It sounds a lot like a surveillance state kind of thing, but it actually just expresses how easy it is for evil deeds to be exposed. If you put the two together, well, I guess things that make the eyes of those watching you hurt are things that should make you feel guilty.

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Yes, the formatting sucks, it’s still WIP. Yes, I’m a nerd.

Does someone remember when Jonapedia first joined in? I remember inviting him over after his message about Kanji but can’t find it on Duo Lingo.

Edit: I’ve updated the first message with new strips. Come on folks, we’ve been on episode 4 for ages.

82. Take 2: だけどもし助かっても寝たきりになったら共働きだしどうしょう?

だけど: however;
もし: if;
助けって 〜て form of 助く【たすく】godan, 〜く ending, transitive, “to help”
『も』inclusive particle (also);
寝たきり: bedridden;
『に』location particle;
なったら: 〜たら conditional of “become”;
共働き【どもばたらき】Husband and wife both working;

Ah ok so it’s not どうしう but rather とうしう. Is it rare to have a よ as opposed to ょ following a し?

So どうしよう means “what to do”.

I still don’t understand the sentence however. The previous sentence said:

:speech_balloon: Doctor… When Grandpa collapsed we wanted you somehow save him and we transferred 1,000,000Yen to the professor…

And the next sentence is about “helping” and being “bedridden”. I don’t see how “helping and” and “becoming bedridden” work together.

Not at all certain, but I have the impression that my first comments/translations were on the ‘29th April’ thread. Duolingo doesn’t give exact dates either anyway. The first thread you invited me to look at was from ‘17th April’, but I can’t remember if I commented on it.

Hm… not sure, and it’s sometimes hard to tell which is which when the font used doesn’t clearly distinguish kana of different sizes. I guess we just need to keep in mind that each serves a different function: しょ is just one syllable, while しよ is two. The first is more common in kanji readings and grammatical forms like しましょう, whereas the second appears… well, whenever you need to put しbefore to よ. Of course, what I’ve just said is a general idea based on what I’ve seen so far. I can’t guarantee that all the しょ’s in the world serve a grammatical function or are related to kanji.

As for what the sentence means…

Firstly, quick remark: it’s 助 って, which is from 助かる, which is ‘to be helped’ or, in some cases, ‘to be saved’. (The exact translation is context-dependent, but the fundamental meaning is the first one.)

To figure the sentence out, I had to go read the translation on Wasabi Japan for a while, because I could understand the sentence, but not its logic. After a while though, I realised that I was associating being ‘bedridden’ with being ‘unconscious’, which is obviously not the same thing, something which I should have realised since the expression used is 寝たきりに なる, with なる indicating a change from the previous state.

I think you need to focus on the fact that だけど indicates a contrast with the previous clause, and that もし, which is often translated as ‘if’, is a word used to strengthen the idea that a statement is hypothetical. Hence, it can also mean ‘what if’. 金子さん’s family are talking about their thoughts before the operation, and thinking about the case in which 金子さん is helped, but still bedridden. It’s a 〜ても structure, so it means ‘even if’/‘including the case where’. Their concern was who would take care of 金子さん since they both work.

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Or “saving” 助く is “to help” in the sense of saving someone (sécourir en français, et non aider).
(and as Jonapedia told, 助かる is the intransitive version, eg “being saved”, or to come out of the life-threatening state.)

I think the key to properly understant 82. is the understanding of te-form + も (but I don’t).

What comes after it ( 寝たきりになったら共働きだしどうしょう?) is not actually a problem, or do you have an issue with some part of it ?

Ah, thanks!
Now all the pieces fall in place.

That does help tremendously.

I would say:

:speech_balloon: “Even if we help, what can two working people/working couple do if (the patient) is bedridden?”

85. だから延命処置『を』やめになると言われた時

:speech_balloon: “So, when we were called to stop the life extension measures”

うしろめたくて病院『に』来れませんでした

:speech_balloon: “We felt guilty not to come at the hospital”

84. じいちゃん『は』いい死『に』方『を』しました…

:speech_balloon: “Grandfather died in a good way/it was a good way for our grandfather to pass away…”

(Oops two 84, my bad).

As Jonapedia pointed out, it is 助かる, the intransitive version; so “Even if he is saved” (eg, if the grandfather comes out of the coma)

(small typo: it is of course ごいました)
(I don’t know if it helps you to think it can/was written as 御座います 座【ザ】was probably only for phonetic)

That’s a nuance unknown in English; as ございました is in past form, it is thanks for something that was already done (here, the care he took of the old man)

:speech_balloon: “Even if he is saved, what can two working people/working couple do if (the patient) is bedridden?”

86. 死『に』方『に』いいも悪いもない

:speech_balloon: “The way if dying is good and is also not bad?”

This doesn’t sound right.

いいも悪いもない is not complicated ( good [neither] bad [neither] there.is.not );

I don’t understand however the 死に方に ; I would have expected 死に方は or 死に方が

( 死に方 is a compound word; not 死+に (particle) but the 連用形 of verb 死ぬ + 方 ; like 言う -> 言い方, 使う -> 使い方, 死ぬ -> 死に方)

共働き is, I think, the fact of both persons of the couple working, and not the two persons themselves (it is 共働き and not 働き共; so the main concept is 働き, work).

And in 共働き だ し (dual.work to.be [justification]) it is a an explanation/justification of the situation (like in French we would say “on travaille tous les deux”)

I wonder if the idea of:
共働きだし / どうしよう
could be rephrased as:
共働きだから / どうしよう
(I understand it like that)

spoil

I understand it as:
‘But, even if he is saved, if he is bedridden, as we both work, what could we do?’

死はみんな同じで、良いのも悪いのも選択肢に入っていないという意味です。 (自分の死に方は選べるものではない)
The subject isn’t really 死に方, but いい and 悪い act a bit as nouns here, so they are the de facto subjects instead. Usually you don’t see も directly following an i-adjective except for expressions like this.

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~と言われた = “it was said that ~”

Other way around; their guilty conscious was the reason they felt they couldn’t come to visit (out of shame). Because as a working couple they wouldn’t have been able to take care of him, stopping the life-prolonging treatment/letting him pass away would in a way be a relief to them, and that thought had them so ashamed they couldn’t bring themselves to face him.

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Ah ok so 『も』acts as “neither” here because the sentence is negative.


87. 死ね『ば』皆同じだ

:speech_balloon: “Dying is all the same”

:writing_hand: “If we die we are all the same/we are all alike” (edited in following @YanagiPablo comment)

僕『は』あの患者さん『を』救えなかった

:speech_balloon: “I couldn’t save that patient”

(I noticed the kanji this time around as ayamadori pointed last time so I didn’t confuse it with the kanji for teach!).

88. 斎藤先生 君『は』ずっとそんな事『を』繰り返すのが


:speech_balloon: “Doctor Saitou, you have been repeating such things”


Issues:

:x: My verb is not nominalised;
:x: I’m using the present perfect continuous which might not be accurate here;

☆ New Vocabulary ☆:

ずっと: throughout;
繰り返す【くりかえす】v. to repeat;
のが: nominaliser;


In this instance, only ずっと is not completely clear to me:

ⓐ continuously in some state (for a long time, distance), throughout, all along, the whole time, all the way (ずーっと and ずうっと are more emphatic)
ⓑ much (better, etc.), by far, far and away
ⓒ far away, long ago
ⓓ direct, straight

The reason it’s instinctively unclear Is because I want to treat it as attributive to そんな事 when really as an adverb it describes 繰り返す. We ran into something similar before and we had the conversation with @Jonapedia. Thankfully I understand better now.