Learning through Translating: ブラックジャックによろしく episode 4: 夏雲

I like to think of Aに as ‘for A’, and of Aのために as ‘at the intention of A’.

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I guess ‘for the purpose of A’ would have been a bit clearer, but I was talking about the case where A was an object. In @Shannon-8’s sentence, A is a person, so yes, it should be more like ‘for A’s sake’.

I guess that works when A is a person. I’m not sure if ‘at the intention of A’ exists in English (I don’t think it does), but I see what that would be in French. Hahaha. I think it’s a good translation.

I propose @ayamedori or @Jonapedia for 24.

Let’s vote:
image
Ultimately, "le peuple a parlé’’ and democracy once again emerges victorious.

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This forum really needs more emoticon reactions… and not just a like button. Lol. BTW, you sure you mean 23? Or at you talking about 25? Only 24 and 25 are left, right?

I don’t know where you see a ‘‘23’’ anywhere.

(muh hah hah hah).

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:rofl:
You know that the forum keeps edit history, right? I found that out by accident the other day. (Rather scary, isn’t it? Nah, just kidding.)

Eh, honestly, I’ll gladly do both 24 and 25. I’ve read 2 of 3 speech bubbles, and I can understand both. It’s just that it’s hard to do fast. I’ll start with 24, and see how long that takes. In all honesty, I hope to finish both in 20-30mins.

24

死ぬ と 決まったら 見舞い に すら 来ない んです ね……
die [quotation] to-be-decided-TARA visit [purpose] even come-not [emphasis] [agreement]…

When it's sure that (you) will die, (they) don't come even for visits, eh?

決まる: to be decided たら is a conditional structure similar to ‘if’. It can also mean ‘when’, which is appropriate for this sentence. と is used before 決まる to indicate a statement that expresses that which has been ‘decided’, ‘settled’ or ‘become certain’.
見舞い(みまい): just means ‘visit’. It’s primarily used for to mean ‘a visit to a sick/afflicted person (e.g. the victim of a natural disaster)’. Can also refer to the gifts and letters/cards that accompany these visits. に is used with 来ない to express that the visit would be the purpose of ‘coming’.
すら: it means ‘even’ or ‘just’. It’s similar (maybe even identical?) in meaning to さえ, which I feel is a bit more common.

25

なん だった んです か ね……?
what be-past [emphasis] [question] [agreement]

What was (all) that, huh?

Nothing to explain except that なん=何 and that I added ‘all’ to translate the emphasis from んです.

あの 100万円 は あなた へ の 餞別 だった のか な……?
that ¥100k [topic] your [direction] ['s] farewell-gift be-past [seeking explanation] [thinking]

Was that ¥100 000 a farewell gift for you(, perhaps)?

あの: the ‘distant’ that. Often used for things present in memories shared by both the speaker and the listener.
あなたへ: ‘to/for you’ As you may have seen, it’s possible to start a letter (possibly an informal one) with <名前>へ. Thus, it’s like the money was a ‘gift’ addressed to him.
餞別(せんべつ): note that it is not 銭 (money), but 餞. The food radical 飠is there because this is a word that original meant 'prepare wine and food (i.e. a banquet/a meal) in order to send someone off on a journey. 別 ordinarily means ‘different’, but it can also mean ‘the act of saying goodbye’.

I added ‘perhaps’ at the end to translate the state of thought that な indicates.

And with that… amazing, I managed to finish within 25 min. See how much time I save when I don’t go looking (too strenuously) for etymology? OK, but honestly, it’s also because you guys have progressed, so I don’t feel the need to explain as much.

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I was thinking of adding “grammar points” in the first message when an explanation is given for easy reference like the -te form or ために. That way explanations wouldn’t disappear with the thread. Feels like a shame for something so useful to be consulted briefly and then gone.

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Isn’t it just essentially a variation of the quotation と? Trying to keep things simple in my brain.

I’ve updated the first thread with more material.

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26.

お早うございます

:speech_balloon: “Good morning”

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Yes, it is. I’m just explaining it in case the structure wasn’t intuitive. (It wasn’t for me, even though I was sure it was the quotation particle.)

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27.

何やってるんですか?

:speech_balloon: “What are you doing?”


:writing_hand: I didn’t analyse this but I’m pretty sure it’s right.

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28.

そりゃ先生

:speech_balloon: “Well doctor…”
☆ I’m aware that it’s not “well” but it felt the most natural in English for そりゃ.


意識『が』なくても体『は』汚れる『し』動かさない『と』床ずれ『も』できます『から』…


Ok so going over some treaded ground here but since it sentence is slightly more complex, better play it safe.

:ledger: Vocabulary:

意識【いしき】consciousness, conscience; from Latin conscius
なくても: even with not, even without; locution
体【からだ】body; Old English bodig
汚れる【よごれる】v. to become dirty;
動かさない【うごかす】v. to move, to budge (more on this in the grammar sub-section);
床ずれ【とこずれ】n. bedsore;

Bedsores — also called pressure ulcers and decubitus ulcers — are injuries to skin and underlying tissue resulting from prolonged pressure on the skin.


:exploding_head: Grammar:

動かさない:

Causative: 動かさせない
We touched on that concept earlier on. “To let something happen” is the idea here. Here it’s in the negative however, not to let something happen. To sum up: “not to let budge”.

『が』here doesn’t serve the conjunction role, so it’s the sentence subject then.
『は』here I think is used for:
ⓑ indicates contrast with another option (stated or unstated)
I don’t think it could be the topic since we’ve already identified the subject with 『が』

V. plain form 〜し (from Maggie Sensei with the garish fuchsia lettering):

When you list multiple verbs, nouns or adjectives.

You give one fact and add more information. (On top of that ~ )

『と』is likely an “if” と

『も』it’s hard to say without having all the elements:

ⓐ too, also, in addition, as well, (not) either (in a negative sentence)
ⓑ both A and B, A as well as B, neither A nor B (in a negative sentence) (as AもBも)
ⓒ even, as much as, as many as, as far as, as long as, no less than, no fewer than (used for emphasis or to express absence of doubt regarding a quantity, etc.)
ⓓ even if, even though, although, in spite of (often as 〜ても, 〜でも, 〜とも, etc.)
adverb (fukushi), colloquialism, abbreviation
ⓔ further, more, again, another, the other (see also: もう)

… but here I think it’s “even” as in “even possible” or “also possible”.

@Jonapedia
How should I approach this? “The consciousness even without a body”?

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What’s up with the しafter “to get dirty”? Is it some kind of adverb maker for not able to move?

At first glance just looking at the definitions, I thought they were saying “You have to move them even if they are unconscious, or they’ll get bedsores.” But then I was also wondering if it would mean “when you move them to prevent bedsores their consciousness can sense you even if they’re unconscious”. I think the first Interpretation will be during closer. It’s not fair, but sometimes U work backwards from what it ought to mean (LOL) to see whether I can make the language and grammar fit. I don’t see it, yet, though. I actually misclassified that verb form, because I was getting cocky and to lazy to look it up. (I wrongly thought it was can/able)

Totally. I need to remain vigilant to take shortcuts as I sometimes want to ignore what grammar generally states to get straight to the meaning. I mean, having “bedsores” and “not let move”, you can already connect the dots as to what the meaning is. With context, I think we instinctively fill in the gaps.

Where did you get the “unconscious” part from? Can you elaborate?

To potential helpers: don’t give the answer please, provide hints :).

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It’s definitely a particle: plain form + し. I’d like to list the possible functions I’ve found from this website: They seem to overlap a lot so I don’t know if the multiple points are warranted.

1) “and”

When you list multiple verbs, nouns or adjectives.
You give one fact and add more information. (On top of that ~ )

2) You can list two different things/ matters to show the contrast

3) Giving a reason and leading to the conclusion

4) Also you finish the sentence with し ( = shi) to make your point in colloquial Japanese

In our case, it’s clearly not 4). The nurse is answering Saitou’s question (“what are you doing”) and justifying her action, so the し here seems like a good choice. We/I just need to demystify the general meaning of it.

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Switch “consciousness” and “body” and you’ve got it! The が means that 意識 is the subject i.e. the thing that’s not there.

The が is in a different clause, 体 is the subject of 汚れる. The topic and subject aren’t necessarily the same thing by the way, though they are here.

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Hello! As you might remember, we said て is a verb linker, and you clearly remember that ~ても means ‘even if ~’. However, since て is meant to join two verbs, that also means it can’t join a verb directly to a noun without some help e.g. with an additional の. That means …なくても doesn’t modify 体 (at least not directly). Remember how the other day, we said depending on where an adverb is in a sentence, we might get the impression that it modifies an entire clause? Try seeing if there’s verb further down that the て-form can link to, and try seeing how the two clauses work together. EDIT: Also, yes, what @ayamedori just said is correct. I didn’t notice that you had switched the two in your translation.

@Shannon-8 @Zizka About the し after 汚れる (this verb has two readings, BTW: kega reru and yogo reru), I’d say it’s #3 on Zizka’s list of functions. Personally though, I’ve always thought of it as the ‘justification marker’. That’s how I learnt it, and so far, that interpretation has always been applicable.
EDIT: As @ayamedori said below, it’s probably #1. #3 is just closest to my usual ‘justification marker’ nuance.

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See, I knew I was wrong but wanted to stick to grammar.

なくても: means even without…
and it’s attributive to 体… shouldn’t it mean:
なくても体 = “even without a body”?

Edit! Oops, we posted at the same time, will study your reply @Jonapedia

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I don’t understand your explanation @Jonapedia.

You seem to break down the て from なくても but my dictionary lists it as one word:

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Ok then, time for an elaboration… First of all, I personally do break it down in my head, since, like I said before, the て-form just lists an action and joins it to the next one in the sentence. So when I add も to [verb/noun]なくて, it becomes ‘including the situation where [verb] doesn’t happen/[noun] doesn’t exist’. That’s why I break it down. The other reason it’s helpful to break it down is because the て-form is still a て-form, even with a も after it, so the grammatical function is the same.

In the simple examples we’ve seen so far, て always joined one verb directly to the next, essentially creating a ‘verb 1 and verb 2’ situation. Here though, 体 very obviously isn’t a verb, so what’s happening? My answer is that the て-form is often used to join clauses. You could see it as the て joining the first verb to the one in the next clause. Also, this is why I called the て-form ‘given that Action 1, [rest of the sentence]’. Try it. Translate everything up to も the way your dictionary says, then read the rest of the sentence.

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