Learning through Translating: ブラックジャックによろしく episode 4: 夏雲

:speech_balloon:"If I had more strength" ?

81.

先生… おじいちゃんが倒れた時なんとか助けて欲しいと思って

Doctor... When Grandpa collapsed we wanted you somehow save him

おじいちゃん・が・倒れた・時・なんとか・助けて・欲しい・と・思って
grandpa・ [subject]・ to.collapse+past・ time・ somehow・ to.save+TE・ wanted・ [quotation]・ to.think+TE

倒れる (たおれる) : to collapse
助ける (たすける) : to save, to help.
欲しい (ほしい) after a te-form of a verb acts as a helper suffix to give the nuance of “wanting (someone) to do”

Litterally “we thought ‘we want somehow to save him’”; but such phrasing would be weird in English

As @ayamedori reported, my first English wording was ambiguous, as the “someone” wanted to do the saving was left out. It is not stated in the Japanese either, but by the use of ~てほしい it is implied it is someone else than the speaker. I put “you” (not necessarly Saitou, but a generic “you, the staff of the hospital”) in the translation

教授さんに100万円お渡ししました

and we transferred 1,000,000Yen to the professor

お渡ししました is polite humble conjugation of 渡す (わたす, 1. to traverse, 2. to transfer, to pass to someone)
It is done with お+連用形+する eg: for 話す => お+話し+します

the “and” of the translation comes from the te-form of the previous line

That’s it!

I think 助けてほしい refers to the professor (“we wanted the prof to save him somehow”), and that’s the reason they gave him the money.

2 Likes

82. だけどもし助かっても寝たきりになったら共働きだしどうしう?

だけど: it’s interesting that the more involve (i.e. looking for a word in a Japanese dictionary) the more your brain remembers it. This is something I’d like to read data about, peer reviewed studies and the like.

だけどもし: however if…
助けっても: help and (〜て) also (も)…
☆寝たきり: bed-ridden, new word!
☆ になったら: to bear, 〜たら conditional;
共働き【どもばたらき】Husband and wife both working; Japanese is fascinating that it has vocabulary for super specific expressions :heart:;


だしどうしょう: I’d like some help about this one. I’m not sure about だし although I think we’ve covered it before.


Although it’s been covered on Duo Lingo, the Japanese conditionals are still I clear in my mind. Speaking of Duo Lingo, despite all of its shortcomings, it’s ironic that participation over there was actually better than here :grinning:.

Anyhow, the advantage of using authentic non-controlled material is that you get exposed to all sorts of structures which forces you to review.

になう【担う】godan v. transitive, 〜う ending;

I’ll be quoting different websites about this but I’m too lazy to copy/paste the link every time. I’m using the quote format to indicate that the explanation is not mine but rather reported information from someone else:

If you want to state these expressions which involve your intentional actions in the conditional form, you need to use たら (tara) sentence.
-Source

What does “intentional action” mean here? The problem with the source above is that it only explains 〜たら in contrast with other conditionals. Let’s try another website.

Actually, same website different lesson:

  1. When the Condition is Different from the Reality
  2. When the Condition is Definitely Going to Happen in the Future

I mean, the absence of subject confuses me a bit here. I think it’s the couple talking, that’s certain. But I don’t see how “to bear” being bed-ridden plays out there.

As usual, hints please not the answer.

になっなら

83. そんな気持ち『も』少しだけありました…

:speech_balloon: “There’s also a little bit of /this feeling those feelings…”

@ayamedori @Jonapedia:
I wanted to write you guys a thank you note. I am really grateful for your help. I try not to take it for granted! It’s so nice to feel welcomed to ask any questions and get a polite, and compassionate answer in return. All of the people who helped, you’ve never let us/me down. Some people will help once and disappear but you’ve made it a point to stay loyal and stand on by.

Thank you!


Re: 82 and 83;
I think they’re saying that it was difficult to both help financially and stay by the man’s side at the same time since both of them are working.

1 Like

84. だから延命処置『を』やめになると言われた時

うしろめたくて病院『に』来れませんでした

うしろ【後】back, behind;
来れませんでした: this one was interesting to me. I’m used to 来 lai2 in Chinese which means “to come”. But actually here it has a different meaning entirely.

See, there’s both 来る and 来たる. I think in the current context that is the past negative form of the latter.

来たる can be a pre-noun adjective (which it isn’t here as there is no noun that follows) or:

ⓑ to come, to arrive, to be due to (orig. meaning)

What I think is interesting is that 来る also has a very similar (identical?) meaning:

ⓐ to come (spatially or temporally), to approach, to arrive

(Orig. meaning) makes me think that 来たる might have been the original meaning until it changed to 来る for some reason or another. This makes me conclude that the definitions of both are meant to be identical.

問題: めたくて… what does it mean? Can’t find anything about that in my dictionary.

I had read it as 寝たきり・に・なったら (if/while becoming bed-ridden);
寝たきり・になったら feels like missing a particle in between…

だしどうしょう: I’d like some help about this one.

It also puzzles me.
I’m unable to see if it is 共働き+だし+どうしよう (but shouldn’t it be written 出し then?)
or 共働き+だ+し+どうしよう (with ending ~し of justification)
(I think it is the second, but just a vague feeling)

It’s a construct I hadn’t seen before

(PS: there is a typo, missing よ in どうしう in the first line transcription)

it’s ironic that participation over there was actually better than here

Well, some energy has been diverted into reshaping/reorganizing things (I’m still completing the links to old analysis; I have almost finished).
Also, new things (like piutch accent videos, and using native dictionnaries) eat time too…
(and Shannon met her dream of learning Creyon chan :slight_smile: (I would like too, but the other reading threads require you have a copy of the book; I don’t…)

It’s actually 後ろめたい, an adjective meaning feeling guilty

来れませんでした: this one was interesting to me. I’m used to 来 lai2 in Chinese which means “to come”. But actually here it has a different meaning entirely.

What “entirely different” meaning are you seeing ?
る : to come; れる : its potential form, to be able to come (来れませんでした is in polite+past)

(PS: it’s the first time I learn of きたる; it feels like old speech)

EDIT: it isn’t 来れませんでした but 来られませんでした; られる is passive form (maybe used for politness)

1 Like

だし is copula だ + particle し, どうしよう is an expression made up of どう “how” and しよう, volitional form of する.

(に)なったら is the tara-form of (に)なる; ~たら is the most versatile of the four-ish ways to say “if” in Japanese.

うしろめたい (adjective) = “to feel guilty”.

来る(きたる) originally came from 来至る (きいたる) and later became 来る(くる). Nowadays きたる is barely used, it has an official feel to it so you won’t encounter it in conversation much. 来れません(これません)is short for 来られません(こられません), the negative potential form of くる.

No problem at all! Explaining grammar lets me refresh my knowledge and look into etymologies more, so it’s my pleasure really :smile:

1 Like

Once again you beat me to it! Will read the replies next time :sweat_smile:

1 Like

Outdated message which I didn’t edit. Like I mention later they’re identical and you guys confirm that one was used before the other.

I do miss Shannon’s participation though. Her energy was contagious.

Thanks, I appreciate it, and you’re welcome. Dropping by does help me to learn a few new words from time to time, and like ayamedori said, I often end up digging into the origins of various words and structures in the process. Just a heads-up though: I may ‘disappear’ for one or two months around June and July, because I’ll have entrance exams to take (les concours d’entrée des écoles d’ingénieurs). I should be back by early August though.

I see that all the questions have been answered already, which is good. I’ll just add a random fact about this adjective then:

後ろめたい came from 後ろ目痛し. As you might know, 〜し was the end-of-sentence form of modern い-adjectives in Old Japanese, so 痛し=痛い. 後ろの目 is literally ‘the eye(s) behind’, which refers to the eyes of the world (e.g. those of other people) that watch us. It sounds a lot like a surveillance state kind of thing, but it actually just expresses how easy it is for evil deeds to be exposed. If you put the two together, well, I guess things that make the eyes of those watching you hurt are things that should make you feel guilty.

1 Like


Yes, the formatting sucks, it’s still WIP. Yes, I’m a nerd.

Does someone remember when Jonapedia first joined in? I remember inviting him over after his message about Kanji but can’t find it on Duo Lingo.

Edit: I’ve updated the first message with new strips. Come on folks, we’ve been on episode 4 for ages.

82. Take 2: だけどもし助かっても寝たきりになったら共働きだしどうしょう?

だけど: however;
もし: if;
助けって 〜て form of 助く【たすく】godan, 〜く ending, transitive, “to help”
『も』inclusive particle (also);
寝たきり: bedridden;
『に』location particle;
なったら: 〜たら conditional of “become”;
共働き【どもばたらき】Husband and wife both working;

Ah ok so it’s not どうしう but rather とうしう. Is it rare to have a よ as opposed to ょ following a し?

So どうしよう means “what to do”.

I still don’t understand the sentence however. The previous sentence said:

:speech_balloon: Doctor… When Grandpa collapsed we wanted you somehow save him and we transferred 1,000,000Yen to the professor…

And the next sentence is about “helping” and being “bedridden”. I don’t see how “helping and” and “becoming bedridden” work together.

Not at all certain, but I have the impression that my first comments/translations were on the ‘29th April’ thread. Duolingo doesn’t give exact dates either anyway. The first thread you invited me to look at was from ‘17th April’, but I can’t remember if I commented on it.

Hm… not sure, and it’s sometimes hard to tell which is which when the font used doesn’t clearly distinguish kana of different sizes. I guess we just need to keep in mind that each serves a different function: しょ is just one syllable, while しよ is two. The first is more common in kanji readings and grammatical forms like しましょう, whereas the second appears… well, whenever you need to put しbefore to よ. Of course, what I’ve just said is a general idea based on what I’ve seen so far. I can’t guarantee that all the しょ’s in the world serve a grammatical function or are related to kanji.

As for what the sentence means…

Firstly, quick remark: it’s 助 って, which is from 助かる, which is ‘to be helped’ or, in some cases, ‘to be saved’. (The exact translation is context-dependent, but the fundamental meaning is the first one.)

To figure the sentence out, I had to go read the translation on Wasabi Japan for a while, because I could understand the sentence, but not its logic. After a while though, I realised that I was associating being ‘bedridden’ with being ‘unconscious’, which is obviously not the same thing, something which I should have realised since the expression used is 寝たきりに なる, with なる indicating a change from the previous state.

I think you need to focus on the fact that だけど indicates a contrast with the previous clause, and that もし, which is often translated as ‘if’, is a word used to strengthen the idea that a statement is hypothetical. Hence, it can also mean ‘what if’. 金子さん’s family are talking about their thoughts before the operation, and thinking about the case in which 金子さん is helped, but still bedridden. It’s a 〜ても structure, so it means ‘even if’/‘including the case where’. Their concern was who would take care of 金子さん since they both work.

1 Like

Or “saving” 助く is “to help” in the sense of saving someone (sécourir en français, et non aider).
(and as Jonapedia told, 助かる is the intransitive version, eg “being saved”, or to come out of the life-threatening state.)

I think the key to properly understant 82. is the understanding of te-form + も (but I don’t).

What comes after it ( 寝たきりになったら共働きだしどうしょう?) is not actually a problem, or do you have an issue with some part of it ?

Ah, thanks!
Now all the pieces fall in place.

That does help tremendously.

I would say:

:speech_balloon: “Even if we help, what can two working people/working couple do if (the patient) is bedridden?”

85. だから延命処置『を』やめになると言われた時

:speech_balloon: “So, when we were called to stop the life extension measures”

うしろめたくて病院『に』来れませんでした

:speech_balloon: “We felt guilty not to come at the hospital”

84. じいちゃん『は』いい死『に』方『を』しました…

:speech_balloon: “Grandfather died in a good way/it was a good way for our grandfather to pass away…”

(Oops two 84, my bad).

As Jonapedia pointed out, it is 助かる, the intransitive version; so “Even if he is saved” (eg, if the grandfather comes out of the coma)

(small typo: it is of course ごいました)
(I don’t know if it helps you to think it can/was written as 御座います 座【ザ】was probably only for phonetic)

That’s a nuance unknown in English; as ございました is in past form, it is thanks for something that was already done (here, the care he took of the old man)