Learning through Translating: ブラックジャックによろしく episode 4: 夏雲

It took me a while to reply because there were some things you wrote I couldn’t understand. I’ll try to reformulante to make sure we are saying the same thing.

Which “first meaning” are you referring to? I think you might be saying that the dictionary is saying that 合い can also be written 間.

You searched for “words starting with 間”;
but what you actually want is just “間” : 間で一致する

This one is clear.

No; it is “ 2. ” (second meaning of 合い), at that second definition is 名詞の下に付いて接尾語的に用いる。(attaches to below names and is used as suffix)

So you’re saying: It’s not 2 but 2nd as in the ordinal.

By “at that second definition” you mean “and that second definition attaches to the nouns below as a suffix”. You said “names” but I think you meant to say “nouns”?

(so, 1. and 2. are main uses it seems, rather than definitions)

Which 1 and 2 are you referring to? I’m confused.

Anyhow, it’s an interesting take on the Goo dictionary. It’s still unclear to me but it was the first time, second time will be clearer.

I asked my question regarding “Goo” at Japanese Stack Exchange:

i.e. " g lobal network continues to expand infinitely" (infinity sign is represented by oo )

75. だけど…

So let’s try “Goo” again since I didn’t understand everything last time. Let’s try だけど this time. I already know what it means so it can help and making sense of the data I get when submitting my input.

This time, I’ll use screenshots so that it’s easier to be in context.

Under the 国語辞書 (Japanese dictionary) there are two entries. By entries I ultimately mean “two definitions”. I’ve identified as ① and ②. Note that both ① and ② are clickable. I’m assuming to get more information about each definition of the words.

[接]

… is used on its own here. My first dictionary gives me the following definitions:

:ledger: touch, contact, adjoin, piece together
… which could mean that it’s clickable? Not sure. Weblio is even more succinct in its definitions (which is very rare): patch.

A patch about what? At this point, I don’t know.

Let’s go back to what I think is the first definition:

「だけれど」のくだけた言い方

Now since 言い方 means “way of talking” this sentence might say:
“It has the same meaning as だけれど” as in “see だけれど for the definition since it’s going to be the same as the words have similar meaning but are written differently.

At the end of the definition, we have: →だけれども which is possibly the “official” way to write だけど and it’s also clickable. I’m thinking this will lead to the definition of that word for reference.

This is what I end up getting for だけれども:


解説 = explanation (definition?):

So I think that 接 might actually refer to part of speech in the sense that だけど is a conjunction, something which “patches” two clauses together.

前に述べたことと相反することをいうときに用いる

:speech_balloon: Used to declare that something is the opposite.

I didn’t analyse it in depth. This is based in my prior knowledge about だけど and 相反する which means “to the contrary”.


75. 《だけど… 少なくとも家族『は』こんなに強く生きて欲しいと願っています…》

:speech_balloon: “But at least the family strongly desires him to live”

(Quite happy with my breaking down of this one).

☆ New Vocabulary ☆

少なくとも【すくなくとも】at least;
こんなに: like this;


Grammar:

To turn an adjective into an adverb, I substitute the 〜い for 〜く. So 強い (strong) becomes 強く (strongly).

生きて is in the 〜て form because it links to the auxiliary 欲しい. So “strongly want to live”.

『と』is probably a quotation particle, depending on what comes after means.

願う is “to desire” (as in お願いします) in the “continuous form”.


76. 強く…

“Strongly…”


P. 25-26 is just a background so moving on to 27-28.


77: 金子敏郎享年75歳

Is just the name and age of the old man with an empty bed which I assume means he passed away.
Edit: 享年 is actually age of death. New word for me also.


78. 僕『が』初めて受け持った患者さんだ

:speech_balloon: “It was the first time I was in charge of a patient”


79. はい これで荷物『は』全部です

:speech_balloon: “Yes, that is all the luggage (his luggage)”

本当にありがとうございました

:speech_balloon: “I really want to thank you”

Yep, it’s short for 接続助詞.
くだけた言い方 means it’s an informal way of saying だけれど; だけれども is the same thing but a bit politer.

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Would it be right to say that it refers to the casual form as in です→だ?

@Zizka @YanagiPablo Hi, just dropping by with a comment:

It’s true that 間もなくliterally means ‘without an interval/period/gap in between’, and the translation ‘the treatment restarted not long ago…’ fits quite well here. However, 間もなく is usually translated as ‘soon’, ‘before long’, ‘shortly’, ‘in a short while’ and so on. I guess you could say it tends to project us forward in time, unlike ‘ago’, which makes us reflect on the time that has passed up to now. I think the phrase should be translated as ‘The treatment restarted, and before long/after a short while,…’ (his family started visiting etc.).

Ultimately, both translations mean the same thing in this case, but I’m just pointing out that 治療を再開して and 間もなく are actually part of two different blocks/clauses in the sentence, as in
治療を再開して、間もなく[the rest happened]

That’s all! Good job on the translations! I didn’t know the expression 間もなく before reading your posts.

EDIT:

Yes, generally, that’s what it means. However, in the definitions you’re looking at, the dictionary is saying that けど is a less formal form of けれど, which is a less formal form of けれども. You could see it as けれども→けれど→けど, in decreasing order of formality.

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80. 申し訳ありませんでした

僕にもっとカがあれば…

I’ll do this one tomorrow, that’s my 3 hours done for today.

As だ has grammatical functions even in polite sentences it’s not necessarily くだけた, but it can be. Other examples are ~ている→~てる、もの→もん、すみません→すいません etc.

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The entry

あい〔あひ〕【合(い)】 の解説

(definition(s) of あい〔old kana spelling あひ〕【kanji spelling 合(い)】)

has two main definitions, labeled with 1 and 2, like this:

(「間」…
名詞の …

Those “1” and “2” are not part of the definitions, just a label numbering them.

That is; it is not “2名詞の…” but “definition number 2: 名詞の …”

Does it makes more sense now ?

You said “names” but I think you meant to say “nouns”?

Yes, sorry, French interfering…

PS: I added links to the defintions pages of 合い and 間 that my comments referred to.

Actually those are two entries (each entry could have more than one definition) of two different words (because you clicked on “words starting with”).

If you had searched for exact matching only first entry would show up.

[接]

probably that means it is actually not a word, but an expression, a chain of words. Indeed it is だ + けど
(note how there is a small hyphen in the presentation)

If you look at けれども itself, it is categorized as [接助](conjuncitve particle); so [接] has another meaning, I think that means the entry is about a set of words.

『と』is probably a quotation particle

I think, yes.
In Japanese verbs of “though” use quotations for the thing involved. To desire is indeed something you thought in your head.

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ayamadori already answered that one :slight_smile:/.

I shouldn’t be lazy, the more I put into it the more I’ll get out of it.

“申し訳ありませんでした”

:speech_balloon:I am truly sorry.

(I found it as is under Weblio as a set expression!)

僕にもっとカがあれば…


僕『に』me [indirect object]
もっと: furthermore, what is more;
力【ちから】strength;
が: subject marker;
あれば: if…


I’m not sure here. Not sure at all. A hint?

あれば = conditional (if) form of ある and もっと = “more”.
Think of AにBがある.

:speech_balloon:"If I had more strength" ?

81.

先生… おじいちゃんが倒れた時なんとか助けて欲しいと思って

Doctor... When Grandpa collapsed we wanted you somehow save him

おじいちゃん・が・倒れた・時・なんとか・助けて・欲しい・と・思って
grandpa・ [subject]・ to.collapse+past・ time・ somehow・ to.save+TE・ wanted・ [quotation]・ to.think+TE

倒れる (たおれる) : to collapse
助ける (たすける) : to save, to help.
欲しい (ほしい) after a te-form of a verb acts as a helper suffix to give the nuance of “wanting (someone) to do”

Litterally “we thought ‘we want somehow to save him’”; but such phrasing would be weird in English

As @ayamedori reported, my first English wording was ambiguous, as the “someone” wanted to do the saving was left out. It is not stated in the Japanese either, but by the use of ~てほしい it is implied it is someone else than the speaker. I put “you” (not necessarly Saitou, but a generic “you, the staff of the hospital”) in the translation

教授さんに100万円お渡ししました

and we transferred 1,000,000Yen to the professor

お渡ししました is polite humble conjugation of 渡す (わたす, 1. to traverse, 2. to transfer, to pass to someone)
It is done with お+連用形+する eg: for 話す => お+話し+します

the “and” of the translation comes from the te-form of the previous line

That’s it!

I think 助けてほしい refers to the professor (“we wanted the prof to save him somehow”), and that’s the reason they gave him the money.

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82. だけどもし助かっても寝たきりになったら共働きだしどうしう?

だけど: it’s interesting that the more involve (i.e. looking for a word in a Japanese dictionary) the more your brain remembers it. This is something I’d like to read data about, peer reviewed studies and the like.

だけどもし: however if…
助けっても: help and (〜て) also (も)…
☆寝たきり: bed-ridden, new word!
☆ になったら: to bear, 〜たら conditional;
共働き【どもばたらき】Husband and wife both working; Japanese is fascinating that it has vocabulary for super specific expressions :heart:;


だしどうしょう: I’d like some help about this one. I’m not sure about だし although I think we’ve covered it before.


Although it’s been covered on Duo Lingo, the Japanese conditionals are still I clear in my mind. Speaking of Duo Lingo, despite all of its shortcomings, it’s ironic that participation over there was actually better than here :grinning:.

Anyhow, the advantage of using authentic non-controlled material is that you get exposed to all sorts of structures which forces you to review.

になう【担う】godan v. transitive, 〜う ending;

I’ll be quoting different websites about this but I’m too lazy to copy/paste the link every time. I’m using the quote format to indicate that the explanation is not mine but rather reported information from someone else:

If you want to state these expressions which involve your intentional actions in the conditional form, you need to use たら (tara) sentence.
-Source

What does “intentional action” mean here? The problem with the source above is that it only explains 〜たら in contrast with other conditionals. Let’s try another website.

Actually, same website different lesson:

  1. When the Condition is Different from the Reality
  2. When the Condition is Definitely Going to Happen in the Future

I mean, the absence of subject confuses me a bit here. I think it’s the couple talking, that’s certain. But I don’t see how “to bear” being bed-ridden plays out there.

As usual, hints please not the answer.

になっなら

83. そんな気持ち『も』少しだけありました…

:speech_balloon: “There’s also a little bit of /this feeling those feelings…”

@ayamedori @Jonapedia:
I wanted to write you guys a thank you note. I am really grateful for your help. I try not to take it for granted! It’s so nice to feel welcomed to ask any questions and get a polite, and compassionate answer in return. All of the people who helped, you’ve never let us/me down. Some people will help once and disappear but you’ve made it a point to stay loyal and stand on by.

Thank you!


Re: 82 and 83;
I think they’re saying that it was difficult to both help financially and stay by the man’s side at the same time since both of them are working.

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84. だから延命処置『を』やめになると言われた時

うしろめたくて病院『に』来れませんでした

うしろ【後】back, behind;
来れませんでした: this one was interesting to me. I’m used to 来 lai2 in Chinese which means “to come”. But actually here it has a different meaning entirely.

See, there’s both 来る and 来たる. I think in the current context that is the past negative form of the latter.

来たる can be a pre-noun adjective (which it isn’t here as there is no noun that follows) or:

ⓑ to come, to arrive, to be due to (orig. meaning)

What I think is interesting is that 来る also has a very similar (identical?) meaning:

ⓐ to come (spatially or temporally), to approach, to arrive

(Orig. meaning) makes me think that 来たる might have been the original meaning until it changed to 来る for some reason or another. This makes me conclude that the definitions of both are meant to be identical.

問題: めたくて… what does it mean? Can’t find anything about that in my dictionary.

I had read it as 寝たきり・に・なったら (if/while becoming bed-ridden);
寝たきり・になったら feels like missing a particle in between…

だしどうしょう: I’d like some help about this one.

It also puzzles me.
I’m unable to see if it is 共働き+だし+どうしよう (but shouldn’t it be written 出し then?)
or 共働き+だ+し+どうしよう (with ending ~し of justification)
(I think it is the second, but just a vague feeling)

It’s a construct I hadn’t seen before

(PS: there is a typo, missing よ in どうしう in the first line transcription)

it’s ironic that participation over there was actually better than here

Well, some energy has been diverted into reshaping/reorganizing things (I’m still completing the links to old analysis; I have almost finished).
Also, new things (like piutch accent videos, and using native dictionnaries) eat time too…
(and Shannon met her dream of learning Creyon chan :slight_smile: (I would like too, but the other reading threads require you have a copy of the book; I don’t…)

It’s actually 後ろめたい, an adjective meaning feeling guilty

来れませんでした: this one was interesting to me. I’m used to 来 lai2 in Chinese which means “to come”. But actually here it has a different meaning entirely.

What “entirely different” meaning are you seeing ?
る : to come; れる : its potential form, to be able to come (来れませんでした is in polite+past)

(PS: it’s the first time I learn of きたる; it feels like old speech)

EDIT: it isn’t 来れませんでした but 来られませんでした; られる is passive form (maybe used for politness)

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